Your kidding right???

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patthebrewer

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So the other night my mother took our kiddos out for some fun, and the wife and (Being Party animals of course) decided to get takeout and watch a movie on the couch. So we got Outback, and for old time sake I stopped to pick up some Foster's Oil Cans (nostalgic for the days I used to drink that stuff I guess), the local ethanol pusher was out of the blue kind(Lager) and only had the green. So I figured what the heck and 4 of em went home with me. So later over dinner I happened to look at the can a little closer, and noticed in small letters the word "Caramel Color Added"...:smack: ...Are you kidding??? Has it come to that?? Whats next....artifical beer flavoring added??
 
Caramel colorant whether it was called sinamar or not IS a pretty common ingredient in historical English Beers. It's mentioned through out the blog "Barclay Perkins."

Caramel in 1885
That's right. Even more stuff from Southby. This time about that eternal favourite of British brewers: caramel.



"Caramel, also commonly known as burnt sugar or colouring, constitutes one of the best materials for increasing the colour of ales, and a proportion of it may be used with advantage in black beers, especially when a brown head is required. For ales it is, I think, a better colouring than black malt, as it gives both a better colour and a pleasanter flavour than the latter, and if properly prepared it can be added to the finished beer, which is often a great convenience.

Caramel is easily prepared from any sugar, by carefully and slowly heating it in a cast-iron pan to about 4000 F 400° F and maintaining that temperature for a short time. It is then allowed to cool to about 230° F, and water is added, very slowly and cautiously at first, to prevent boiling over. Enough water must be added to convert it into a syrup, which can then be used as required.

Care must be taken that the temperature does not at any time exceed 420°, as immediately above that point the sugar gives off torrents of inflammable vapours, and is rapidly and entirely carbonised, so that there is not only the certainity of destroying it, but also serious risk of its bursting into flames.

For black beers intended for immediate consumption, a cheap caramel may be made by heating some of the lower qualities of cane sugar; but for ales, sugars of good quality must be used, and if the ales are required to keep for any length of time, the sugar should have been previously refined.

No beet sugar should be employed. A thoroughly converted glucose has been successfully caramalised, but is not generally so economical a material as cane sugar. If glucose is used, it should be a quality containing very little dextrine.

In making caramel great care must be taken in the heating, for if the sugar is over-heated, or the heating is continued for too long a time, a more or less insoluble modification is produced. The difficulty is to heat the sugar enough to obtain the fullest amount of colour, without producing more or less of the. insoluble modifications. There are several varieties of these caramels produced by overheating; some of them are quite insoluble, and remain as a brown deposit when the caramel syrup is drawn off from the pan, they are therefore absolutely lost, and useless to the brewer, but are not actively detrimental.

There is, however, another modification which is very troublesome and injurious. This latter caramel dissolves in the strong syrup, and gives great apparent depth of colour, but when some of the syrup is added to an ale, a cloudiness quickly makes its appearance, which for the time entirely destroys the brilliancy of the beer, and is by no means easily got rid of. The cloud produced by this caramel generally deposits after a time, but of course leaves the beer paler by several shades than it was intended to be.

For the brewer who makes his own caramel, the best rule is always to under heat it. A partially made caramel, if it has been judiciously prepared by gradual heating, with constant stirring, will not cause any cloud in the beer, and as it yields the extract value of the sugar from which it was made, there is no loss to the brewer, even if he has to use double the quantity, as compared with the stronger caramels produced by the manufacturers of that article.

It seems to me very extraordinary that so few brewers put up the pan with suitable stirrers, which is the whole plant required for making caramel. The expense of the apparatus is comparatively small, and the profit is so large that the brewer can recover the whole cost of the plant in a few months. Those brewers who make and use caramel largely, find it so profitable that they jealously guard the secret, lest their trade rivals should adopt the manufacture, and hence perhaps the reason that so little is known of it in the trade.

There are several manufacturers of caramel for sale, who offer the brewer a first-rate article, and I may here mention the caramel crystals, and powder, manufactured by Lichtenstein & Co., which is a very concentrated form of first-rate quality, and perfectly reliable as far as my experience goes. The only drawback to the use of these first-class caramels is their somewhat high price, so that it does not pay the brewer to use them, except occasionally and in small quantities. In fact, owing to the peculiar properties of this material, the brewer can always make it far cheaper than he can buy it. On the other hand a great deal of the caramel commonly sold clouds the beer, and has other objectionable properties. A short time ago I made a careful series of experiments, on the manufacture of caramel on a considerable scale, so that I can speak confidently on the practical aspects of this subject." (Source: Source: "A systematic handbook of practical brewing", by E.R. Southby, 1885, pages 256-259.)

Interestingly enough the very first comment on the blog is from our own mbowenz.

It's not surprising that it would be used in Australian beers, since they were once part of the Empire.
 
I guess if it is sugar added during brewing then it is OK.......why is it listed at all if it is an ingredient? They don't list crystal or 2 row.
 
And what do you all think Belgian Candi Syrup is? How come no one sneers at them using that?

From Brew like a Monk;

Caramelized sugar: Caramel syrups are sold in Europe, giving brewers a variety of choices not available in the United States. Many American brewers use dark candi (rocks) as a substitute, but while the darkest provide a rummy, unrefined character, they don’t come close to replicating the caramelized flavors found in darker Belgian ales.
 
So do Belgian ales say color added?

It is wierd. I agree that sugar added while brewing is OK, why the hell is that listed separately?
 
the problem with color is that, as we all know, it can vary batch to batch, based on a variety of factors we can't really control. which is fine....if you're an educated consumer. I'd rather have a consistent aroma/flavor/gravity than consistent color.

if you aren't, and you see 5 bottles of, say, rum or whiskey on the shelf that all have slight color differences, you might easily come to the conclusion that the manufacturer is an idiot and refuse to buy their product.
 
However, I don't recall seeing any mention additional caramel coloring added to bottles of any of the other eglish ales I have enjoyed ,ie Samuel Smiths, Bass, Old speckled Hen, Fullers, Tetley's etc. I've hauled my tired posterior all over europe, and never seen it mentioned on anything I've tried. It seems to me that if it was just as you say burnt sugar or sinamar or any other natural ingredient, would that merit inclusion into a warning on the label of commercial beer? Most wouldn't list something like that if they didn't have to, right? After all it's hardly a selling point, wouldn't you think?
 
Yay grammar! That was the first thing I though of, too.

Lol, I thought yuri was having a stroke or something...DAMMIT YURI!!!!

.....I missed you're joke.

Because they're being HONEST for once. It's probably REQUIRED in Australia to list ingredients like that. Ya think that could be possible?

Dude!!!! You talkin to ME?????

;)

I said that adding sugar is a fine brewing practice. I just wonder why they would list it when other beers don't. Your explanation is plausable.

Thanks!
 
However, I don't recall seeing any mention additional caramel coloring added to bottles of any of the other eglish ales I have enjoyed ,ie Samuel Smiths, Bass, Old speckled Hen, Fullers, Tetley's etc. I've hauled my tired posterior all over europe, and never seen it mentioned on anything I've tried. It seems to me that if it was just as you say burnt sugar or sinamar or any other natural ingredient, would that merit inclusion into a warning on the label of commercial beer? Most wouldn't list something like that if they didn't have to, right? After all it's hardly a selling point, wouldn't you think?

It's as good question. It probably is an "artificial" colorant since it was listed. I'd guess that's the case.

Now, of course, nearly everything we eat contains artificial colors, so there's no reason to get indignant here. It does call into question the integrity of the brewers to be making beer that way.
 
We actually DO have the same requirements according to the FDA and TTB for beer labels.

(4) in the statement of ingredients: the common or usual name of each ingredient if the product is made from two or more ingredients, in descending order of predominance by weight (e.g., Ingredients: sorghum, water, rice, yeast, molasses, FD&C Yellow No. 5) (21 CFR 101.4). This includes, but is not limited to, the following ingredients: (a) the name of any chemical preservative present and a description of the function of the preservative (e.g., Ingredients: sorghum, water, rice, yeast, molasses, ascorbic acid to promote color retention), as specified in 21 CFR 101.22(j); (b) a declaration of any added coloring, as specified in 21 CFR 101.22(k), and (c) a declaration of added flavor, such as any spices, natural flavors, or artificial flavors, as specified in 21 CFR 101.22(h);
(5) nutrition labeling (21 CFR 101.9) unless exempt. (Note: Some products are exempt under the provisions in 101.9(j));5

(Reading that **** always give me a freakin headache. No wonder I have no desire to sell my own beer. Those ****ing laws......)
 
FYI

Foster_s_Premium_4a7516ebc31d3.jpg
 
We actually DO have the same requirements according to the FDA and TTB for beer labels.



(Reading that **** always give me a freakin headache. No wonder I have no desire to sell my own beer. Those ****ing laws......)

Isn't there caramelized sugar in nearly every malt? I don't understand.

If caramelized sugar was required to be listed as coloring, wouldn't every brewery have to list it?

If it is just an Australian thing, then fine, but it sounds like that isn't it.
 
Isn't there caramelized sugar in nearly every malt? I don't understand.

If caramelized sugar was required to be listed as coloring, wouldn't every brewery have to list it?

If it is just an Australian thing, then fine, but it sounds like that isn't it.

Caramel coloring isn't NECESSARILY high in sugar content enough to be seen as a fermentable additive. What you do is you boil a small amount of sugar til it is burnt, then you hit it with a bunch of water, what you then end up with is pretty much caramel colored water with little actual flavor, and only contributing a tiny amount to the gravity) and THAT is added to the beer as a COLORANT.

It was also called Essentia Bina in making porters in the old days. Only that stuff was black and nasty.

It's kinda like how you make a bochet, BUT you're only using a tiny bit of sugar and making a liquid that doesn't have a lot of fermentables in it (try it on your stove with a quarter pound or less of sugar and an gallon of water and you'll see.)



He's adding the water around 6:33

Since it's being added as a COLORANT, natural or artificial evidently it has to be identified on a beer label. If they are adding that or any OTHER color then it DOES have to be labeled evidently.
 
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I'm actually kind of surprised by the forcefulness, and condescension in the tone of your replies;). I intended not piss anyone off, just putting a voice to my surprise (based on my experience), with the intention of starting a discussion to see if this was normal or what anyone else though of it:D.
 
It's BEER.

If you enjoy it, it doesn't have any chemicals added that worry you and you like the taste, why worry about color additions?

IF they had to use some form of roast grain to get the color, do you think it would taste the same?

Nearly all food items have things added to make people like the look, taste or something. At least the flavor is what they brewed.

By the way, I've used spices in my beer. Not part of the actual fermented beer but added for flavor and aroma.
Still beer and if it comes out tasting good, I'm drinking it.
 
However, I don't recall seeing any mention additional caramel coloring added to bottles of any of the other eglish ales I have enjoyed ,ie Samuel Smiths, Bass, Old speckled Hen, Fullers, Tetley's etc. I've hauled my tired posterior all over europe, and never seen it mentioned on anything I've tried. It seems to me that if it was just as you say burnt sugar or sinamar or any other natural ingredient, would that merit inclusion into a warning on the label of commercial beer? Most wouldn't list something like that if they didn't have to, right? After all it's hardly a selling point, wouldn't you think?

Because maybe the labelling rules in Britain are different. maybe because it's so common in English beer, it's not worth mentioning on their labels?

My understanding is that Australia is a lot like Texas with some confusing and often contradictory alcohol laws.

And to me, if you understand that it has been done forever it really isn't that big of a deal, unless you're looking for it to be some sort of a big deal. It's been a common practice in brewing around the world forever. So there's no point in getting bent out of shape about it, or making it like another one of those big evil plots by the mega brewers to put something over on folks.
 
And actually I remembered a discussion in THIS thread, that evidently sinamar is sold to both Yuengling AND Dogfish Head. Don't know if it's true, but the guy who gave the homebrewer a sample said he sold to them.

And according to this article in BYO on the Cascadian Dark Ale, that it sometimes used in them.

Comments – Some brewers prefer to cold steep the dark grains to achieve a very dark beer without the tannin contribution of adding these grains to the mash. The use of Sinamar® color extract to enhance the color is common.
 
And actually I remembered a discussion in THIS thread, that evidently Caramel Colorant is sold to bot Yuengling AND Dogfish Head. Don't know if it's true, but the guy who gave the homebrewer a sample said he sold to them.

Isn't it funny how the same irrelevant ideas come around and get people worked up over nothing.

Actually the pointless heated debates are why I don't go to members only areas much.
I don't think ever on purpose.

Beer is supposed to be about relaxing and leisure time. There must be something better to fight about.
 
Isn't it funny how the same irrelevant ideas come around and get people worked up over nothing.

Actually the pointless heated debates are why I don't go to members only areas much.
I don't think ever on purpose.

Beer is supposed to be about relaxing and leisure time. There must be something better to fight about.

:mug:

I also just realized where I first heard about it. When I was trying to recreate Lion's Stout. It's used in Tropical stouts because they want a thinner, more drinkable body to them, than their counterparts, so they go with the colorant instead of the grain. Plus it's evidently de-bittered.
 
You do know that the Fosters they sell in America is actually brewed by Miller in Texas, right?
 
Sorry didn't realize that certain topics were off limits here......please accept my apologies:(
 
You do know that the Fosters they sell in America is actually brewed by Miller in Texas, right?

Then they're probably bound by the American Labelling law I listed then.

Pat, I don't know why you're skins so thin about this. No-one's saying you can't discuss it, in fact some of us ARE discussing it. It's just funny how you and Cheezy, ESPECIALLY cheezy got so indignant about something that really, as I've shown, is pretty common to macro brewers/craft brewers/historical brewers/and EVEN some homebrewers.

It may be something that you just noticed, or cheezy hasn't heard of, but just because you folks were ignorant about it's use, doesn't mean it's not uncommon, or even abnormal. And I bet you, after this discussion, you're going to start noticing it on labels you probably have looked at a hundred times...

You ever hear the saying "You learn something new every day?" Well this is something new, in brewing it's not uncommon to use sinamar and caramel colorings in beers. And it's not a crime to do so, it has it's purpose.

Sounds like you're living up to the name of your brewing company. ;)
 
Yep, it's being talked about. No one is saying that it's wrong to talk about coloring in beer.
The part that I don't get is with all that goes on in the world, why is added color to a beer something that gets a guy worked up? There certainly must be something that bothers you at least 100 times more than that??


Sounds like you're living up to the name of your brewing company. ;)

Now I don't care who you are, that's just funny stuff right there.
 
"Sounds like you're living up to the name of your brewing company. "



yeah well that may be the case:D
 
I was going to pass on the fosters, but now it has carmel coloring? Ok I'll go buy some now, I always hated under colored beer.

Interesting. I just google the product and found out it used to be called Foster’s Special Bitter. So Foster's Premium Ale is in the syle of an English Bitter.

According to the English Beer wiki;

Bitter belongs to the pale ale style and can have a great variety of strength, flavour and appearance from dark amber to a golden summer ale. It can go under 3% abv - known as Boys Bitter - and as high as 7% with premium or strong bitters. The colour may be controlled by the addition of caramel colour.[3]


So yeah, it fits for the style of beer.
 
Damn! I use dark grains and have even Carmelized sugar to add color to my beers. I even look at the color in the beers I drink and comment on them...

I hang my head in shame.


Edit: see what happens when you don't realize how many pages there are in a thread. I need a beer.
 
as a display of his vast ignorance.

Well to be honest, I don't have any bad feelings or lack of respect for you or Cheezy.
I just don't care that much, and I only tend to remember people who contribute in a positive way anyhow.
This is for the same reason that I say who cares about the additive for color. Life is short, don't worry about the little things. If it has no negative impact on you, who cares?
 

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