I just started to look into doing starters again after a long break and something I noticed is the online calculators now have steps. I ignored this and refreshed my memory on the 100g of DME per 1 litre formula and then starting using my stir plate. But after reading some more I think I missed something basic that I never knew. Is there a point where you are supposed to do multiple steps for a starter? For example, I just did a 2.5 L starter with a single pack of yeast. Now I'm wondering if maybe I was supposed to first do 1 litre then step it up twice to 2.5. Is there any guideline on this?
Yeast starter - when to add steps
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VikeMan
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Multi-step starters are only needed when going from a very small cell count to a very large cell count. More specifically, if your first/only step would have an inoculation rate below some threshold, then a smaller step is recommended (thus increasing the inoculation rate) along with a second (and maybe a third) step.
A good yeast calculator should alert you when you may need to be doing a multi-step starter for your particular starting cell count, wort volume, wort gravity, and even type of recipe (ale vs lager).
A good yeast calculator should alert you when you may need to be doing a multi-step starter for your particular starting cell count, wort volume, wort gravity, and even type of recipe (ale vs lager).
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Ive started doing some yeast banking and one thing ive noticed is that the rule of thumb is only multiply by 10, so from one pack you should be able to go up by 10 times that. But i did a 2.5 starter once and noticed it didnt get the estimated 400 billion cells. Just 3 days ago I did 2 step and easily got to about 450. Now im going on the estimate of 5ml of compact yeast is 20 billion cells. But the 2 step from 1L to 2L was a lot more yeast than a pack into a 2.5L starter. Take it for what its worth .
What @VikeMan says.^
Keep an eye on the value in the Inoculation Rate field. 25-100 million cells per ml (starter) will give you optimum growth.
Too thick or too thin, results won't be as good.
Then there is a "vitality starter" that isn't to be found on any yeast pitch calculator.
I've had lift off within 3-4 hours by pitching the required amount cells of an actively fermenting vitality starter that was placed on a shaker (or stir plate) 3-4 hours ahead of time, while brewing the batch. Both the starter and the batch wort were well-oxygenated.
Keep an eye on the value in the Inoculation Rate field. 25-100 million cells per ml (starter) will give you optimum growth.
Too thick or too thin, results won't be as good.
Then there is a "vitality starter" that isn't to be found on any yeast pitch calculator.
I've had lift off within 3-4 hours by pitching the required amount cells of an actively fermenting vitality starter that was placed on a shaker (or stir plate) 3-4 hours ahead of time, while brewing the batch. Both the starter and the batch wort were well-oxygenated.
VikeMan
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When I developed the yeast calculator embedded in my software, I assumed that most users wouldn't really understand (or care to understand) inoculation rates, so I made the calculator enforce them behind the scenes. For a given recipe and number/age of yeast packs (or volume of slurry), it will simply recommend a starter size, including multiple steps if needed. So the yeast "answer" morphs organically along with the recipe build. (Users can go to the parameters page and tweak several parameters that affect the calculation, but in my experience, most don't.)
But if using Mr. Malty or YeastCalc or the like, I agree that it's pretty important to be aware of the inoculation rates.
pretzelb
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So I tried one calculator again using a 1.100 OG estimate and it auto-fills step 1 with a 2L starter. It does warn me that I'm still short of a 495 goal. But it then just says either make the starter bigger OR add a step. Another tool estimates I'd need 371 and tells me I do not need a second step. No wonder I was confused.
pretzelb
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Just curious, how did you measure you cell count?
I tend to use this yeast/starter calculator the most:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
For repitching from slurries, nothing beats Mr. Malty's Repitch from Slurry tab:
Mr. Malty
Hopefully we can get a stand alone or Flash-free version by the end of this year.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
For repitching from slurries, nothing beats Mr. Malty's Repitch from Slurry tab:
Mr. Malty
Hopefully we can get a stand alone or Flash-free version by the end of this year.
Is your yeast calculator available to us?
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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It's part of BrewCipher, which is an excel workbook. I wouldn't necessarily recommend using it as a standalone yeast calculator (there are plenty of those), although it could be used that way. But the real idea behind BrewCipher is an integrated brewing solution. It's free and can be downloaded at:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/library/
Thank you! I didn't know BrewCipher was yours!
I haven't really used it yet, so, time to explore it a bit more.
VikeMan
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If you have previously downloaded it (more than a few months ago), I'd recommend downloading the latest version (6.3). The excellent MpH water model by @dmr which BC uses had a major update.
Thanks for the HU!
I do have the current v6.3
I'll definitely be looking at your water model, and compare it with 2 others I use...
VikeMan
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Thanks for the HU!
I do have the current v6.3
I'll definitely be looking at your water model, and compare it with 2 others I use...
As much as I'd like to take credit for the water model, it's @dmr's model. I think you'll like it. If you are a water nerd, I'd also recommend reading his white papers, the most recent one linked here...
http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-homebrewing-perspective-on-mash-ph.html
pretzelb
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I will need to look into Brew Cipher when I get some time. I was playing around with some online calculators and found some wild variation. Looking at Homebrew Dad's Online Yeast Starter Calculator with a 1.100 OG just a normal 2L starter should be fine, but if I plug in some overpitch it does in fact automatically suggest a two step process. Meanwhile using the same data at Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator - Brewer's Friend shows that a 2L starter won't be enough and it doesn't auto fill a 2 step process, similar to what Yeast Calculator does.
