Yeast starter using dry yeast
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Yes I do, I usually try to target a pitch rate of 1m/ml/P and have found dry yeast to perform better if you let it go through a generation before use in your beer.
So I routinely make starters with dry yeast,the procedure is exactly the same as with liquid yeast.
So I routinely make starters with dry yeast,the procedure is exactly the same as with liquid yeast.
VikeMan
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Yes. There is a common misconception that liquid yeast needs a starter and that dry yeast doesn't. This is because dry yeast packs often contain more cells than liquid yeast packs (depending on the manufacturer). But what really matters is the cell count, the volume of wort, lager vs. ale (and/or the brewer's goals).
Making a starter with dry yeast is just like making a starter with liquid yeast, except that you have a choice to either rehydrate the yeast first or just sprinkle it into the starter wort. I generally rehydrate.
I'll also mention that dry yeast is relatively inexpensive "per cell count" compared with liquid yeast. So it might sometimes make sense to buy two (or more) packs of dry yeast rather than make a starter.
Making a starter with dry yeast is just like making a starter with liquid yeast, except that you have a choice to either rehydrate the yeast first or just sprinkle it into the starter wort. I generally rehydrate.
I'll also mention that dry yeast is relatively inexpensive "per cell count" compared with liquid yeast. So it might sometimes make sense to buy two (or more) packs of dry yeast rather than make a starter.
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Franktalk
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I just tried this. I made a biere de garde and only had one packet of K-97, so I made a vitality starter (shaken not stirred), One liter in a one-gallon jug. Shook the $#!+ out of it. Pitched it about 12 hours later, and it took off like a rocket. I used a Flex fermenter (7 gallons) for a five gallon batch and within 12 hours, it was shooting out of the airlock. It seemed to finish in about 3 days, but I left it for three weeks 'cause K-97 needs time to drop. Kegged it today, and it took it from 1.060 to 1.013. And boy, did it smell good! I will make starters with dry yeast again.
No. One pack is enough for up to 6 gallons unless you're making a high gravity lager then I'd use two. NOT having to make a starter is one of the greatest advantages of dry yeast, besides that it will last for probably 10 years in refrigeration (unlike liquid yeast).
Franktalk
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Yes, usually I would agree with you. However, I am being proactive because K-97 can be a bit wonky. And, when it is done well, it is the best dry yeast for a biere de garde. So, I use it, and try to provide the conditions that will get the best results out of it.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Sooner or later, forum wisdom will recognize that the answer to this question is strain / SKU specific. (hint: some SKUs appear to be blends).
Curiosity question: why do you want to make a starer with dry yeast?
Jack Arandir
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This is exactly right. Generally, it's best to just pitch the dry yeast directly without a starter. If you need extra cells (lager, high OG, large batch), it's often better to just buy another $5 pack rather than making a starter.
Chris White puts it explicitly: "Another case where you normally do not want to make a starter is with dry yeast. Dry yeast is inexpensive, and it is usually cheaper, easier, and safer to buy more dry yeast than to make a large starter. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter." (Yeast, p.133) Granted, his company sells yeast...
I my case, I only make starters when I don't have enough dry yeast for the batch size and don't have the ability to buy more yeast (my LHBS is 1 hour away grr). I do 5L starters, and I pitch the yeast onto the chilled wort. It seems to work the same as for liquid yeast starters.
I make 2QT starter.
1QT goes to the beer, the other one to my frozen yeast bank using 15mL SimPure Centrifuge Tubes as described somewhere in this forum.
Right now I am making a batch using 2 tubes of S-33 from the yeast bank in 1QT starter. The yeast was frozen in Feb 2021.
I prepare 7x 1QT Ball's jars by adding 110g of DME to each jar, filling with water and pressure canning it. The solution in those jars stays sterile for months until used in a starter.
1QT goes to the beer, the other one to my frozen yeast bank using 15mL SimPure Centrifuge Tubes as described somewhere in this forum.
Right now I am making a batch using 2 tubes of S-33 from the yeast bank in 1QT starter. The yeast was frozen in Feb 2021.
I prepare 7x 1QT Ball's jars by adding 110g of DME to each jar, filling with water and pressure canning it. The solution in those jars stays sterile for months until used in a starter.
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Ramjet
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I just made a Scottish ale about 6% using safale 04 a fellow homebrew friend of mine suggested making a 1qt. starter on the morning of brew day and pitch the whole starter with I did. I am just looking for healthy yeast and good fermentation and wondered if anyone else was making starters from dry yeast.
Red over White
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I make a ½ qt vitality starter with 1 pack the morning of brew day for each fermenter and pitch the starter entirely in. I do add 5g goferm protect evolution to each starter and do not aerate the fermenter. My own experience is that I have a faster, healthier ferment and the new growth in the fermenter tastes better than pitching multiple dry packs directly in and relying on the rehydated cells to do all the heavy lifting.
Honestly, I think it’s worth trying many ways and see what tastes best or what amount of effort is worth it for every individual. We all taste things differently. A lot of dry yeast isn't for me, but some dry yeast is every bit as good as liquid.
BrewnWKopperKat
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^^^^^ visual + 1
The other thing to keep in mind is that some yeast SKUs may not be a just a single strain of yeast. In these cases, making a starter (or re-pitching) may result in inconsistent results. One can make an 'informed' decision to 'color outside the lines' by checking the yeast provider's product information sheets.
Ramjet
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I put mine on a stir plate until I was ready to pitch. I will be kegging very soon we'll see how it comes out
I rehydrated US-05 for my last batch and had a much longer lag time than when I dry pitch. It was almost 18 hours. That NEVER happens when I dry pitch.
Another vote for no starter. @Jack Arandir quoted Chris White above as saying no need to make starters with dry yeast. I quoted that on here one time and got thrashed lol.
Another vote for no starter. @Jack Arandir quoted Chris White above as saying no need to make starters with dry yeast. I quoted that on here one time and got thrashed lol.
Although putting the yeast through only one "cycle" before pitching it should not produce any notable difference in the blend ratio.
BrewnWKopperKat
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While not the exact quote:
"In theory, theory and practice are always the same. In practice, theory and practice are occasionally different"
captures the meaning.And, it should be noted that some dry yeast SKUs contain a single strain of yeast and additional (single use) ingredients (e.g. SafBrew™ LD-20).
The generalization that "you can make a starter with (any) dry yeast and get good results" is going to fail occasionally for people who don't take the time to understand the specific yeast SKU they are using. Let's not add this generalization to the list of "forum wisdom" that is eventually proven wrong (e.g. "extract is always darker than expected", "if you water tastes good, it will make good beer (of any style)").
It's not hard to find dry yeast product / SKU information.
Take the time to make an informed decision for the specific yeast SKU that is being used.
(And take good notes)
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I make overbuild starters with dry yeast because they're not as cheap as they used to be, but I sure am! And if they pass muster I will bank 'em.
Working with S-189, on the 3 rd generation of repitching and this yeast gets better with every one.
Working with S-189, on the 3 rd generation of repitching and this yeast gets better with every one.
HighVoltageMan!
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I use a starter to build up yeast for lagers. One pack of dry lager yeast in a 4 liter starter gets me @ a 2.0 pitch for a 1.050 gravity, 7 gallon lager. It's cheaper than to pitch the equivalent in dry yeast, which is 4 packs. The savings is up to 20 bucks depending on the strain and price per pack. The yeast also has a shorter lag time when it's run through a starter. With ales, I just use the yeast in the pack. I have done starters many times with dry yeast and many of these beers have won medals both locally and nationally.
It all depends on what you want to accomplish and knowing something about what you are trying to accomplish. There are many ways to skin a cat, pick the one that works for you. The thing you have to keep in mind when you make a starter with dry yeast, it's no longer a dry yeast and needs to be aerated.
The whole notion that there are multiple strains in dry yeast and a starter is going to increase these strains is pretty much BS.
It all depends on what you want to accomplish and knowing something about what you are trying to accomplish. There are many ways to skin a cat, pick the one that works for you. The thing you have to keep in mind when you make a starter with dry yeast, it's no longer a dry yeast and needs to be aerated.
The whole notion that there are multiple strains in dry yeast and a starter is going to increase these strains is pretty much BS.
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, but I'm brewing 5 gallons of oatmeal stout today and I'm doing a yeast 'wake-up' rather than a starter.. i guess. if that makes sense.
I just boiled two cups of water and 3 tablespoons of DME.
Tossed in the packet of dry safale us-04(~ 70 degrees) and put it on the stir plate. I plan on pitching this yeast around 8pm this evening.
Now that I've been doing some reading, I'm worried that this is too little starter and it may actually hurt the yeast. Any thoughts or recommendations?
Thanksk!
I just boiled two cups of water and 3 tablespoons of DME.
Tossed in the packet of dry safale us-04(~ 70 degrees) and put it on the stir plate. I plan on pitching this yeast around 8pm this evening.
Now that I've been doing some reading, I'm worried that this is too little starter and it may actually hurt the yeast. Any thoughts or recommendations?
Thanksk!
Jack Arandir
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You're fine. Lallemand recommends adding a bit of wort to rehydrated yeast. It helps them acclimate to the new environment.
Good luck with your stout!
Good luck with your stout!
Thanks for the reply!
From what I've read, 10 - 12 hrs didn't seem like enough time to do any real damage.. just enough to let the yeast wake back up. But I've never done this before, so I figured I'd ask.
One pack of S-04 sprinkled on top of 5 gallons would be an overpitch. Making a starter with it is unnecessary and is still an overpitch. Your fermentation should take off really fast and be completed within about 48 hours.
HighVoltageMan!
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I completely disagree that this is an overpitch. The gravity and temperature all play a roll in the amount of yeast needed. One pack would give you about a .5 million cells/P/ml in an average 12-13 Plato beer. An over pitch would be @ 1.0 -1.5, two to 3 packs. Lower temperatures require more yeast, higher temperatures require less yeast. Even if the cell count was 20 billion per gram, this is still not an overpitch.
With a small starter, @ .5 liter, there would be very little or no growth at all. This is especially true if the cell count is 20 billion cells per gram. This would simply be an elaborate rehydration process. I have done it myself when I do slight under pitches to "wake up" the cells and reduce lag times.
The dry yeast manufacturers lists the cells per gram to be @ 6 billion, which I think is conservative. The 20 billion cells per gram is too high IMO. The reason you can get by with a lower pitch of dry yeast is because of the vitality of the yeast. It has been propagated under the best environment with nearly the perfect nutrients and then put in a dormant state through the process of dehydration. Because of this it can survive and thrive in low oxygen environments (sterol and lipid reserves) and grow to make up for the low yeast population. Dry yeast has a way better vitality than liquid yeast because of the dehydration process. If I could get all the strains of yeast I use in a dry form, I would even consider liquid at all unless I was re-pitching it.
The point of a proper pitch rate is to allow for proper yeast growth amount and health. This is a pretty big range for most beers.
redrocker652002
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Gonna jump in here but understand I am a novice and have used mostly dry yeast with no starter. I am in the process of reading Palmer's How to brew and I remember him writing that rehydrating dry yeast is a good thing, but actually making a starter is not necessary. Again, take this for what it is worth because I tried to make a starter with liquid yeast and failed miserably. I am going to try again of course, because I want to incorporate using liquid when it is called for.
VikeMan
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It's necessary if you don't have as many cells as you want to pitch, as with any yeast. John doesn't participate on this forum, but I'm fairly certain he would agree.
redrocker652002
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My apologies if I came off wrong. I am a very new brewer so I should have kept that one to myself. Rock on!!!!!! RR
VikeMan
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No apologies necessary. You're discussing in a discussion forum.
There's another current thread with a similar discussion. Check out This Thread starting with post #66 for a more complete story regarding the oft quoted "rule" to not make starters with dry yeast.
BrewnWKopperKat
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One of the advantages of active dry yeast is that one doesn't need to make a starter - but one may need to pitch multiple sachets to get the correct pitch rate.
In late 2022, guidance from Fermentis and Lallemand seems to suggest that one can either sprinkle or re-hydrate and get the same result. For example (link)
When multiple sachets of lager yeast is too expensive, Lallemand has information on how to make a starter with Diamond Lager yeast (link to Diamond™ lager yeast).
Thanks for all the great replies.
I did read where it isn't necessary to do a starter with dry yeast, but I wanted to try this out to see how it would work.
The yeast sat in the mini beer on a stir plate from roughly 9am to 2:30am before being pitched on ~70 degree wort. The OG was roughly 1.06. As of 9am this morning it was bubbling and fairly foamy on top at roughly 68-69 degrees. I will post back w/the final results to let you all know if it worked, or failed.
I did read where it isn't necessary to do a starter with dry yeast, but I wanted to try this out to see how it would work.
The yeast sat in the mini beer on a stir plate from roughly 9am to 2:30am before being pitched on ~70 degree wort. The OG was roughly 1.06. As of 9am this morning it was bubbling and fairly foamy on top at roughly 68-69 degrees. I will post back w/the final results to let you all know if it worked, or failed.
Hey All,
Just wanted to give you the update on the Oatmeal Stout. I'm sure you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting.
Anyways, I did sort of a starter using safale 04. Two cups of water and 3 tablespoons of DME for 10-12 hours.
My OG was right around 1.060(slightly higher) and the FG was right around 1.020(slighty under).
The concern was that it would ferment too quickly. Which it still could have, I'm not sure. It foamed up quite a bit for 3-4 days, then settled down a little. After 8 days, there were still bubbles popping on the surface and the air lock was popping every 35-40 seconds. I still noticed bubbles on the surface10 or 11 days after pitching. I noticed pretty zero activity today, so I kegged it. It's on CO2 now and I will post back w/whether or not it gets the "thumbs up" from everyone.
Just wanted to give you the update on the Oatmeal Stout. I'm sure you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting.
Anyways, I did sort of a starter using safale 04. Two cups of water and 3 tablespoons of DME for 10-12 hours.
My OG was right around 1.060(slightly higher) and the FG was right around 1.020(slighty under).
The concern was that it would ferment too quickly. Which it still could have, I'm not sure. It foamed up quite a bit for 3-4 days, then settled down a little. After 8 days, there were still bubbles popping on the surface and the air lock was popping every 35-40 seconds. I still noticed bubbles on the surface10 or 11 days after pitching. I noticed pretty zero activity today, so I kegged it. It's on CO2 now and I will post back w/whether or not it gets the "thumbs up" from everyone.
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