Yeast starter question

[sfish]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

 

[Warthaug]

Or using a population that's already viable.

Which, from commercial yeast sources, doesn't exist. Any process meant to store & ship yeasts negatively impacts their health & viability; hence why starters (& rehydration for dried yeast) is so important.

Yes. Are you trying to HELP me talk beginners out of a doing starter?

No, I was pointing out the stupidity of your claim that we need to somehow ask the yeast how they are doing before deciding whether to do a starter or not.

Could you list the lab equipment necessary so that beginners can jump on amazon and grab some Chinese b-stock?

Of course, to make your "point", you had to clip the rest of my statement wherein I outlined why such capacities are completely unnecessary for either the new, or experience brewer. Why is it you have to distort what I wrote to make your "points"? As was mentioned in my post - before you dishonestly deleted the section that was inconvenient to you - all of these numbers have been calculated before, there is no need for brewers of any stripe (except, perhaps, the anal-retentive ones) to do yeast counts.

But, to actually answer your question (instead of dishonestly editing it so I can reply with something unrelated), all you need is a hemocytometer & toy microscope - cost is ~$50, new, and that's with a USB-connected microscope...

I'm not sure which base you think I'm on.

The one where you are advocating a position that starters are not worthwhile for the beginner due to some sort of imaginary unpredictability of yeast, imaginary complexity of starters, and imaginary incompetence of new brewers.

How about a categorical error? Before the rest of your perfect Thanksgiving dinner recipe story, I should point out that your average beginner does NOT have a laboratory. They have a kitchen, and hopefully a measuring cup. The predictability of microorganisms or anything else in nature isn't much help if you have poor accuracy, or are unsure enough of what you are doing.

You really need to read what was written; the whole point of my "story" was that you do not need laboratory equipment to achieve a reasonably accurate estimate of yeast numbers post-starter. Simply knowing nothing more than your media composition (e.g. 1.040 DME) and a rough idea of starting numbers is sufficient - both at home, and in a real lab. All we need in a lab to get the cell numbers we require is media of a known OG & a rough (within a factor of 10) idea of the number of cells we add at the beginning.

The home brewer, in their kitchen, knows those values to within the accuracy required, without the need for any specialized equipment beyond a scale. That is all it takes - a measly $5 kitchen scale - to achieve the exact same degree of control and predictability in your kitchen that I achieve in my lab. In other words, if you can operate a scale, boil water, and read viability info off the side of your tube of yeast, you can be as accurate in your kitchen as I can be in my lab.

That's really amazing. How does that clarify things for the beginner?
I have a story about scientists too. "When I asked him, my microbiologist friend told me, that if I couldn't get an air pump, I should shake the carboy for a few minutes every day because yeast like oxygen!..." Why don't you just ask the guy that monitors a fractionating tower at a refinery how to make whiskey? (actually that guy probably does make whiskey) Whatever. I think I've made my point.

I don't think you made a point there; unless your point was to make make some sort of snide side-remark attempting to dismiss my expertise in an area in which you are clearly ignorant. As for your new question, teaching a beginner about proper pitching rates and how to achieve them does a number of things:

1) Its never too early to lean about best practices; even if you are not immediately capable of implementing them.
2) Starters are an extremely simple thing to do, well within the capabilities of most new brewers
3) Starters provide a new (or old) brewer with an easy and cheap approach to improve the quality of their beer.
4) Informing a new brewer of the role of proper yeast numbers & health sets them up for success by informing them of a common cause of bad-tasting beer and provides them with a procedure to avoid it.

As someone who has <indirectly> claimed to be a teacher, you should recognize that as the de facto standard of good pedagogy for self-directed learning.

I'd also point out that comfort levels vary greatly between people. I'v known brewers whose first brews were all-grain, complete with yeast starter, and were successful. I've known others who brewed extract kits for a prolonged time in order to build their confidence. Most new brewers fall in-between. Your approach is to assume that all beginners are incompetent and incapable of handling a rather pedestrian task. It is an unrealistic position, underestimates many new brewers, and is also quite insulting to the majority of new brewers to whom starters are well within their capacity & comfort zone. Again, as someone claiming to be a teacher you should be well aware of asynchronous learning and how you as a teacher set up all students for success given different their learning capacities...

Well, I'm not sure you understood my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the same goal(s). I'm telling beginners not to screw around with starters if they can get reasonably fresh yeast.

Which is, generally speaking, bad advice. Hence the push-back you are receiving. Viability is not the sole factor in yeast quality - yeast health is also key. Packaged yeast, even when fresh from the company, is generally of poor health. Anoxic, nutrient-void environments are not friendly towards yeast health. Nor is being dehydrated. Reaching appropriate pitching numbers by pitching multiple vials of yeast is still inferior (in terms of yeast health, off-flavour production, attenuation, fermentation speed, etc) than yeast from a starter. It is also significantly more expensive, and is a bad brewing practice. You're essentially arguing that new brewers get into bad habits that they will later have to break, rather than doing it correctly (or at least being aware of how to do it correctly) from the beginning.

They have enough to worry about already, and generally worry too much as it is. What's your message? If you have a laboratory it's trivial. If you don't, don't worry! The people that make the yeast know what they are doing-- BUT DO A STARTER!

My message is simple and concise - proper pitching of healthy yeast is the easiest thing a new brewer can do to maximize the quality of their beers. Achieving this is simple, cheap, does not require one iota of specialized equipment, and is well within the capacity of the majority of new brewers. Hell, I even have a blog post & video showing them how to do it.

I don't get it. I don't get yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.

Given that yeast are (sours aside) the sole source of fermentation in the beer, a major source of both flavours and off flavours, and are the one ingredient whose quality & activity the brewer actually controls, their health & activity should be the foremost concern to every brewer of every skill level. Good yeast can turn a bad brewday into a passable beer. Bad yeast can turn a perfect brew-day into an unpalatable beer. Learning to properly manage yeast is the single most important, and by far simplest, thing a brewer can do to improve the product they produce.

Hence the "fetish".

Bryan

 

[Warthaug]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

Overpitching is better. Extreme over-pitching can detract from a beer. But for the home brewer it is very difficult to get to those sorts of pitch rates. In fact, you can be 4 or 5 times over the "ideal" pitch rate without significant problems, while being 1/2 under can lead to issues & off-flavours.

As an example, many people will pitch directly onto the yeast cake left over from a previous batch of beer. Assuming average gravity beers both times, that works out to an over-pitch of 5X or 6X, and people rarely report issues arising from that. The main thing you find with "extreme" overpitching is a lack of ester flavours & sometimes an over-thinning of the beer body.

Bryan

 

[mtnagel]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

Everything I've read says yes. Of course you can way overpitch by hundreds of billions of cells if you reuse the entire yeast cake from a previous batch, so I wouldn't do that.

Edit: or what Bryan said. That's what I get for getting distracted while typing up a reply.

 

[kombat]

Another "overpitcher" here. I've done both, and the detrimental effects on the beer are vastly more pronounced with underpitching.

When I re-use yeast, I harvest the yeast cake from a 5 gallon batch of beer into 4 Mason jars. I use each Mason jar on another batch of yeast, which strictly speaking, is overpitching by roughly a factor of 2. But I rarely repitch right away, so the jars typically sit in the fridge for a few weeks before being decanted and pitched (which decreases viability), and I don't bother doing a starter when re-pitching yeast, so my rough calculations estimate that my pitch is just about right, or only slightly over.

 

[sawbossFogg]

You do realize that your method is essentially identical to running one set of numbers on MrMalty, then using that solution for every beer, right?




I think pitching an appropriate amount of dry yeast is probably the best approach for inexperienced brewers. I've only ever used 11g packs, so I think in terms of those, but they are aimed at 5 gallon batches and are sufficient for up to OGs of 1.07 or 1.08. If you're doing larger batches, you don't need to get too clever---just increase the number of packs proportionally.

If the calculator is intimidating, I think this is a more than adequate method that is unlikely to steer you very wrong.

I agree you are correct. As an example I recently brewed a 5 gal .080 all grain porter with my brother while visiting on a borrowed system and we pitched 2 Notti packs with great success. What I wanted to point out the new user trying develop their knowledge is that the calcs will advise this and provide peace of mind as well give the inquiring mind some insight into the cells and ratio they're pitching. I like brewers friend the best.
Lastly I saw somewhere in hear a question lost in the drudgery of jaw jacking and swing dicks that asked simply why the calc were asking for a gravity and if that was the gravity of the starter. I think someone mentioned the starting gravity at ~.040 was best practice and he can read endlessly on this on HBT. I think the answer he was looking for was the calc is asking you to input the OG and volume of the wort you plan to pitch into in order to help you prepare an appropriate number of beasties.

Anyone who hasn't should read Bobs post titled Something like Don't Pitch on your Yeast Cake. It's excellent.

Adam, go beat your dog of something.


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[newnick]

I believe I've learned something here, thanks.

 

[res291que]

^ me too people are very opinionated, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Oh, and when people get fired up they loose sight of grammar and spelling issues with their post ( I only pick up on this cause I suck at both and get corrected constantly by English majors).


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[sawbossFogg]

I believe I've learned something here, thanks.

Good!


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[sawbossFogg]

^ me too people are very opinionated, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Oh, and when people get fired up they loose sight of grammar and spelling issues with their post ( I only pick up on this cause I suck at both and get corrected constantly by English majors).


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Maybe you should be an English major. All grammar and no content.


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[newnick]

I've been trying to improve my brewing and did my first starter about a month ago. I wonder why they don't put enough yeast cells in a package of liquid yeast to actually do a batch without a starter.

 

[mtnagel]

Cost.

 

[Warthaug]

And other reasons - enough yeast for a 1.055 batch of beer isn't enough for a 1.080 batch of beer. And enough for 5 gal isn't enough for 10. In addition, viability drops over time, so enough yeast at packaging can quickly become not enough in the brewery.

Bryan

 

[zeg]

asked simply why the calc were asking for a gravity and if that was the gravity of the starter. I think someone mentioned the starting gravity at ~.040 was best practice and he can read endlessly on this on HBT. I think the answer he was looking for was the calc is asking you to input the OG and volume of the wort you plan to pitch into in order to help you prepare an appropriate number of beasties.

Yeah, it's the beer you're making. I usually make my starters a bit less than 1.040, based on some book---perhaps Yeast. IIRC, I've seen recommendations from reputable sources that vary from about 1.020 to 1.040 as ideal. I think the key is to create a gentle environment that coddles the average member of the yeast culture---too high a gravity will bias survival in favor of monster yeast, which are likely not the ones that give the selected strain its desired character.

I've been trying to improve my brewing and did my first starter about a month ago. I wonder why they don't put enough yeast cells in a package of liquid yeast to actually do a batch without a starter.

What Warthaug said. Also, unlike dry yeast, the manufacturers assume you are going to use a starter if you are using liquid yeast. They provide plenty of cells for a starter. If you're not up to doing a starter, then stick to dry yeast.

(That piece of advice appears at least as far back as Papazian's classic.)

 

[newnick]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

 

[mtnagel]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

Yes, this is what I said earlier in the thread:

If you used a 1 month old pack of liquid yeast, you'd have roughly 75 billion cells and you should only pitch that into a 5 gallon, 1.021 wort or lower or you are underpitching.

And who makes a 1.021 beer?

 

[newnick]

Sorry you had to repeat yourself, I've been trying to pay attention.

 

[mtnagel]

Oh no worries.

And for a 1060 beer with fresh yeast, you'd need 219 billion cells or 2.3 packs. Or a starter

 

[Warthaug]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

One of those tubes/packs, pitched into 5gal of an average ale, will eventually ferment out. And, with some secondary aging will eventually turn into a nice beer. This usually takes over a month. Use a starter into the same ale and you can be in the keg/bottle in as little as a week (although 2 weeks is more normal), no secondarying is required, and the beer will probably taste better too...

Bryan

 

[newnick]

It looks like I'm heading in the right direction with the brews that I plan to make then. Thanks

 

[zeg]

Oh no worries.

And for a 1060 beer with fresh yeast, you'd need 219 billion cells or 2.3 packs. Or a starter

...or an 11g pack of dry yeast...

 

[Adam_Selene]

Yeast make beer. That's why most brewers have "yeast fetishism."

Planes land on air strips. If you build an air strip, planes will land. Cargo Cult. (Google it)

--Adam Selene

 

[Adam_Selene]

Yeah, it's the beer you're making. I usually make my starters a bit less than 1.040, based on some book---perhaps Yeast. IIRC, I've seen recommendations from reputable sources that vary from about 1.020 to 1.040 as ideal. I think the key is to create a gentle environment that coddles the average member of the yeast culture---too high a gravity will bias survival in favor of monster yeast, which are likely not the ones that give the selected strain its desired character.



What Warthaug said. Also, unlike dry yeast, the manufacturers assume you are going to use a starter if you are using liquid yeast. They provide plenty of cells for a starter. If you're not up to doing a starter, then stick to dry yeast.

(That piece of advice appears at least as far back as Papazian's classic.)

**** Papazian.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I just wanted to say that I agree with Adams intent, I think, in leaving some of the Internet banter out of brewing and just don't worry and brew. I am in AG brewer and in no way think that pitch rate is the second most important thing. That's ridiculous to say if by not making a starter you make a 1.070 and only pitch one packet...big deal. You slightly under pitched. I would worry about mash thickness, mash temp control, sanitation, boiling time and hop additions, boiling intensity, my mash recipe, dropping the yeast at proper temp, proper cooling, and probably many other thing before pitch rates. My intention is to be funny and not really jump on Adams side though because after all this talk I will make my first starter tonight and hope for this significant difference in my beer. To me there is a pecking order of things to try and perfect and pitch rate was low, prob not correct but just how it worked for me. I had a lot of other issues along the way.


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[zeg]

**** Papazian.

Wow, you're edgy.

I just wanted to say that I agree with Adams intent, I think, in leaving some of the Internet banter out of brewing and just don't worry and brew. I am in AG brewer and in no way think that pitch rate is the second most important thing. That's ridiculous to say if by not making a starter you make a 1.070 and only pitch one packet...big deal. You slightly under pitched. I would worry about mash thickness, mash temp control, sanitation, boiling time and hop additions, boiling intensity, my mash recipe, dropping the yeast at proper temp, proper cooling, and probably many other thing before pitch rates. My intention is to be funny and not really jump on Adams side though because after all this talk I will make my first starter tonight and hope for this significant difference in my beer. To me there is a pecking order of things to try and perfect and pitch rate was low, prob not correct but just how it worked for me. I had a lot of other issues along the way.

Not sure I can tell where you're serious and where you're ironic, but you're right that you have to choose your battles. However, that's different from advocating poor practices when better alternatives are no more difficult.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I was just saying that, choose your battles but what is funny to me is while saying that I am trying to make a starter cause I was informed that and now it seems stupid not too. My situation is also generally very close to a proper pitch as I am rarely above 1.060 and generally pitching on <5 gal.


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[Adam_Selene]

Adam, I can appreciate what you're trying to do -

I appreciate what your trying to do. Reduce the ******* pressure on this thread. I don't like it either.

simplify the process for beginners - but yeast pitching rates are the second most important factor in making good beer (the first, in my opinion, being temperature control).

What about sanitation? That can be a bit of a show stopper.

Underpitching is one of the most common mistakes new (and even experienced) brewers make, which is sad because it's also one of the easiest to correct.

If you want to steer newbies away from the complexities of starters and advocate just pitching dry yeast that's absolutely fine, but you must still encourage them to pitch the CORRECT amount of dry yeast.

How can I do that if I don't know the other conditions involved?

The calculators will help you figure out how many packets to pitch. Heck, you don't even have to advocate rehydrating the dry yeast. If you want to keep it dead-simple for newbies, tell them they can sprinkle it directly into the wort. Just understand that doing so reduces viability by up to 50%, so they must adjust the number of packets they're pitching accordingly.

One 11.5g packet of (properly re-hydrated) ale yeast is good for 5 gallons of 1.040 wort. If they don't want to rehydrate, then they should pitch 2 packets. If they're brewing 1.060 beer, they should sprinkle 3 packets. By all means, keep it simple if you want, I have no problem with that, but at least keep it CORRECT and simple.

A beginner will have to choose one, or the other in practice. I would rather insult 10,000 "established" home-brewers that have been doing it for 20 years than scare one potential brewer with incessant bridges to cross.

 

[Pappers_]

Lets keep the conversation civil please, so no posts are deleted, no threads closed. Its fine to disagree, but no one wins arguments on internet forums.

To the topic of this thread, yeast management generally is one of the keys to good brewing. Giving the yeast a healthy environment in which to do their work, oxygenating, pitching sufficient amounts of viable yeast, controlling their environment temp while they do the work of fermentation.

I use dry yeast often when I haven't gone to the trouble of making a starter or planning so I can repitch a ton of yeast from a previous batch, because of pitching rates.

 

[Adam_Selene]

Ok. No flames.

Even after someone compares what I have to say to dog beating. I never.

I had this coming though. I KNEW this would hurt people's feelings. For what? It's just beer. The intimidation of beginners is what hurts my feelings. More so than the fetishism.

I'll re-iterate what I've tried to convey here again, because this is a good time to do it. I'll respond to whatever else tomorrow.

1) Beginners have enough to worry about already. People can only worry about so many things at once. The over emphasis on pitching rates is more likely to displace something else important than it is to save the day.

2) If the yeast is fresh, then depending on the conditions involved, you may not have to do a starter. In fact, you often won't. More often than is generally known. WAY more often. (why, I don't know... (internet/silly books/cargo culture)

3) As I have already mentioned in this thread, beginners can too easily screw up rehydration of powdered yeast. If they mishandle either the measuring cup, or the thermometer they can kill half the cells before they even get a chance to pitch.

4) Fresh yeast is not always available, but it's available enough that we don't have to make sweeping assumptions before we even read the date stamp.

5) You don't NEED a flask/stir-plate/stir-bar to do a starter for your five gallon batch.

Where does good practice begin, and absurdity end? Are we supposed to be telling the people that do the Brooklyn Brewshop 1 gallon kits that they need a 50 ml erlenmeyer flask to do their starters in? With a big fat stir bar in there already? Come on.

--Adam Selene

 

[aslander]

Cut your losses man. Sometimes there's a point when you just need to stop, reevaluate the situation, and realize that having the last word doesn't further the discussion. The nature of forums is to get a wide array of opinions. You've filled up this thread with post after post of banter. We understand your opinion, so just chill and let others say theirs. No need to respond to every post because you feel attacked. It just instigated things.

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[sfish]

Well well....

My first thread and I do say thank you for the education. I have learned a good bit, that I will put into pratice, and information I have used to go elsewhere and research.

It has been implied a thread could be removed. I personally would like to be able to reference this at times in the future. I understand the different points of view posted here and the debate and once again; thank you.

sfish

 

[Pappers_]

Well well....

My first thread and I do say thank you for the education. I have learned a good bit, that I will put into pratice, and information I have used to go elsewhere and research.

It has been implied a thread could be removed. I personally would like to be able to reference this at times in the future. I understand the different points of view posted here and the debate and once again; thank you.

sfish

Interesting thread, sfish! There are lots of threads on starters here on the forums for you to read through and I personally learned a lot reading Yeast by Chris White and Jamil Zanisheff (spelling?) - well worth the time.

And we've all learned that while most of the posters here think that paying attention to pitching rate is one of the most important things a homebrewer can do when s/he's ready to advance beyond beginner brewing status, some do not.

For those who participated in this thread, the next time you come upon a disagreement like this, I would urge you to make your point and then move on. Don't make it personal (the best way to do that is to not even address another member, just the issue). Some folks who are not able to be civil in these sorts of threads are now former members of HBT, but I hate to see that happen unnecessarily.

Because the OP's questions have been addressed and to remove the temptation to keep the back and forth argument going, I'm closing the thread but leaving it up for anyone to see.