sfish
Well-Known Member
Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?
Which, from commercial yeast sources, doesn't exist. Any process meant to store & ship yeasts negatively impacts their health & viability; hence why starters (& rehydration for dried yeast) is so important.Or using a population that's already viable.
No, I was pointing out the stupidity of your claim that we need to somehow ask the yeast how they are doing before deciding whether to do a starter or not.Yes. Are you trying to HELP me talk beginners out of a doing starter?
Of course, to make your "point", you had to clip the rest of my statement wherein I outlined why such capacities are completely unnecessary for either the new, or experience brewer. Why is it you have to distort what I wrote to make your "points"? As was mentioned in my post - before you dishonestly deleted the section that was inconvenient to you - all of these numbers have been calculated before, there is no need for brewers of any stripe (except, perhaps, the anal-retentive ones) to do yeast counts.Could you list the lab equipment necessary so that beginners can jump on amazon and grab some Chinese b-stock?
The one where you are advocating a position that starters are not worthwhile for the beginner due to some sort of imaginary unpredictability of yeast, imaginary complexity of starters, and imaginary incompetence of new brewers.I'm not sure which base you think I'm on.
You really need to read what was written; the whole point of my "story" was that you do not need laboratory equipment to achieve a reasonably accurate estimate of yeast numbers post-starter. Simply knowing nothing more than your media composition (e.g. 1.040 DME) and a rough idea of starting numbers is sufficient - both at home, and in a real lab. All we need in a lab to get the cell numbers we require is media of a known OG & a rough (within a factor of 10) idea of the number of cells we add at the beginning.How about a categorical error? Before the rest of your perfect Thanksgiving dinner recipe story, I should point out that your average beginner does NOT have a laboratory. They have a kitchen, and hopefully a measuring cup. The predictability of microorganisms or anything else in nature isn't much help if you have poor accuracy, or are unsure enough of what you are doing.
I don't think you made a point there; unless your point was to make make some sort of snide side-remark attempting to dismiss my expertise in an area in which you are clearly ignorant. As for your new question, teaching a beginner about proper pitching rates and how to achieve them does a number of things:That's really amazing. How does that clarify things for the beginner?
I have a story about scientists too. "When I asked him, my microbiologist friend told me, that if I couldn't get an air pump, I should shake the carboy for a few minutes every day because yeast like oxygen!..." Why don't you just ask the guy that monitors a fractionating tower at a refinery how to make whiskey? (actually that guy probably does make whiskey) Whatever. I think I've made my point.
Which is, generally speaking, bad advice. Hence the push-back you are receiving. Viability is not the sole factor in yeast quality - yeast health is also key. Packaged yeast, even when fresh from the company, is generally of poor health. Anoxic, nutrient-void environments are not friendly towards yeast health. Nor is being dehydrated. Reaching appropriate pitching numbers by pitching multiple vials of yeast is still inferior (in terms of yeast health, off-flavour production, attenuation, fermentation speed, etc) than yeast from a starter. It is also significantly more expensive, and is a bad brewing practice. You're essentially arguing that new brewers get into bad habits that they will later have to break, rather than doing it correctly (or at least being aware of how to do it correctly) from the beginning.Well, I'm not sure you understood my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the same goal(s). I'm telling beginners not to screw around with starters if they can get reasonably fresh yeast.
My message is simple and concise - proper pitching of healthy yeast is the easiest thing a new brewer can do to maximize the quality of their beers. Achieving this is simple, cheap, does not require one iota of specialized equipment, and is well within the capacity of the majority of new brewers. Hell, I even have a blog post & video showing them how to do it.They have enough to worry about already, and generally worry too much as it is. What's your message? If you have a laboratory it's trivial. If you don't, don't worry! The people that make the yeast know what they are doing-- BUT DO A STARTER!
Given that yeast are (sours aside) the sole source of fermentation in the beer, a major source of both flavours and off flavours, and are the one ingredient whose quality & activity the brewer actually controls, their health & activity should be the foremost concern to every brewer of every skill level. Good yeast can turn a bad brewday into a passable beer. Bad yeast can turn a perfect brew-day into an unpalatable beer. Learning to properly manage yeast is the single most important, and by far simplest, thing a brewer can do to improve the product they produce.I don't get it. I don't get yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.
Overpitching is better. Extreme over-pitching can detract from a beer. But for the home brewer it is very difficult to get to those sorts of pitch rates. In fact, you can be 4 or 5 times over the "ideal" pitch rate without significant problems, while being 1/2 under can lead to issues & off-flavours.Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?
Everything I've read says yes. Of course you can way overpitch by hundreds of billions of cells if you reuse the entire yeast cake from a previous batch, so I wouldn't do that.Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?
You do realize that your method is essentially identical to running one set of numbers on MrMalty, then using that solution for every beer, right?
I think pitching an appropriate amount of dry yeast is probably the best approach for inexperienced brewers. I've only ever used 11g packs, so I think in terms of those, but they are aimed at 5 gallon batches and are sufficient for up to OGs of 1.07 or 1.08. If you're doing larger batches, you don't need to get too clever---just increase the number of packs proportionally.
If the calculator is intimidating, I think this is a more than adequate method that is unlikely to steer you very wrong.
I believe I've learned something here, thanks.
^ me too people are very opinionated, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Oh, and when people get fired up they loose sight of grammar and spelling issues with their post ( I only pick up on this cause I suck at both and get corrected constantly by English majors).
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asked simply why the calc were asking for a gravity and if that was the gravity of the starter. I think someone mentioned the starting gravity at ~.040 was best practice and he can read endlessly on this on HBT. I think the answer he was looking for was the calc is asking you to input the OG and volume of the wort you plan to pitch into in order to help you prepare an appropriate number of beasties.
I've been trying to improve my brewing and did my first starter about a month ago. I wonder why they don't put enough yeast cells in a package of liquid yeast to actually do a batch without a starter.
Yes, this is what I said earlier in the thread:They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?
And who makes a 1.021 beer?If you used a 1 month old pack of liquid yeast, you'd have roughly 75 billion cells and you should only pitch that into a 5 gallon, 1.021 wort or lower or you are underpitching.
One of those tubes/packs, pitched into 5gal of an average ale, will eventually ferment out. And, with some secondary aging will eventually turn into a nice beer. This usually takes over a month. Use a starter into the same ale and you can be in the keg/bottle in as little as a week (although 2 weeks is more normal), no secondarying is required, and the beer will probably taste better too...They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?
Oh no worries.
And for a 1060 beer with fresh yeast, you'd need 219 billion cells or 2.3 packs. Or a starter
Yeast make beer. That's why most brewers have "yeast fetishism."
Yeah, it's the beer you're making. I usually make my starters a bit less than 1.040, based on some book---perhaps Yeast. IIRC, I've seen recommendations from reputable sources that vary from about 1.020 to 1.040 as ideal. I think the key is to create a gentle environment that coddles the average member of the yeast culture---too high a gravity will bias survival in favor of monster yeast, which are likely not the ones that give the selected strain its desired character.
What Warthaug said. Also, unlike dry yeast, the manufacturers assume you are going to use a starter if you are using liquid yeast. They provide plenty of cells for a starter. If you're not up to doing a starter, then stick to dry yeast.
(That piece of advice appears at least as far back as Papazian's classic.)
**** Papazian.
I just wanted to say that I agree with Adams intent, I think, in leaving some of the Internet banter out of brewing and just don't worry and brew. I am in AG brewer and in no way think that pitch rate is the second most important thing. That's ridiculous to say if by not making a starter you make a 1.070 and only pitch one packet...big deal. You slightly under pitched. I would worry about mash thickness, mash temp control, sanitation, boiling time and hop additions, boiling intensity, my mash recipe, dropping the yeast at proper temp, proper cooling, and probably many other thing before pitch rates. My intention is to be funny and not really jump on Adams side though because after all this talk I will make my first starter tonight and hope for this significant difference in my beer. To me there is a pecking order of things to try and perfect and pitch rate was low, prob not correct but just how it worked for me. I had a lot of other issues along the way.
Adam, I can appreciate what you're trying to do -
simplify the process for beginners - but yeast pitching rates are the second most important factor in making good beer (the first, in my opinion, being temperature control).
Underpitching is one of the most common mistakes new (and even experienced) brewers make, which is sad because it's also one of the easiest to correct.
If you want to steer newbies away from the complexities of starters and advocate just pitching dry yeast that's absolutely fine, but you must still encourage them to pitch the CORRECT amount of dry yeast.
The calculators will help you figure out how many packets to pitch. Heck, you don't even have to advocate rehydrating the dry yeast. If you want to keep it dead-simple for newbies, tell them they can sprinkle it directly into the wort. Just understand that doing so reduces viability by up to 50%, so they must adjust the number of packets they're pitching accordingly.
One 11.5g packet of (properly re-hydrated) ale yeast is good for 5 gallons of 1.040 wort. If they don't want to rehydrate, then they should pitch 2 packets. If they're brewing 1.060 beer, they should sprinkle 3 packets. By all means, keep it simple if you want, I have no problem with that, but at least keep it CORRECT and simple.
Well well....
My first thread and I do say thank you for the education. I have learned a good bit, that I will put into pratice, and information I have used to go elsewhere and research.
It has been implied a thread could be removed. I personally would like to be able to reference this at times in the future. I understand the different points of view posted here and the debate and once again; thank you.
sfish
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