Yeast starter in fermenter

[fivehoursfree]

So I have read a few articles/threads on yeast starters. I am really sort of lazy, and dealing with flasks and stirplates and all that seems a little too much for me right now. I have also heard of just throwing a wort on top of a previous yeast "cake". So would it be possible to make a small starter solution, throw it in the fermenter, let it do it's thing, then siphon off the "beer" then throw the wort of a full batch right onto the starter "cake"?

 

[nowise]

Not 100% relevant but I heard a Jamil Show episode where he brews a 60 shilling Scottish with just an activator smack-pack and then uses the cake for his stronger Scottish brews. He likened it to a 5 gallon starter.

 

[flyangler18]

If making a starter and proper yeast management is too taxing, use dry yeast.

You can knockout onto a cake, or simply harvest some of the cake and store it in the fridge. You may want to search for 'yeast washing' for more information.

 

[fivehoursfree]

Well, I've been using whitelabs vials, which are supposedly pitchable the way they come. It has worked so far. I was just wondering if anyone had done it the way I described, and what the results are like.

 

[denimglen]

Whitelabs say the vials are pitchable but really and truely they're not. There's a lot of info out there that will give the full story better than I can.

Actually making a starter in your fermenter wouldn't be a bad idea, huge head space so lot's of oxygen in there which will help the yeast grow. Surface area to liquid ratio would be high as well which should help with oxygen absorption. I don't think the results would create as much yeast as a stirplate system would but if it's only a small volume starter you wouldn't have to syphon off the beer either so you're taking out one transfer which could possibly introduce bacteria.

It's probably a little more complicated than what Ive stated above but I can't see why it wouldn't work or be a bad idea.

 

[Piotr]

Starter should be sterile, not only sanitized.
It's hard to sterilize a fermentor, that's why we use smaller flasks. In my case size limit is the size of pressure cooker.

 

[yemu]

Starter should be sterile, not only sanitized.
It's hard to sterilize a fermentor, that's why we use smaller flasks. In my case size limit is the size of pressure cooker.

I put erlenmeyer flask on a gas stove and boil water in it for a couple of minutes. Probably it's not as sterile as it could be after boiling in a pressure cooker, but I think it's enough. I then decant water, and pour in boiling wort.

It's also possible to use wort instead of water from the begining, but you need to use some anti-foam agent, because the boiling wort will scorch.

Handling starters is nothing complicated, there's nice explanation of everything about starters on the one of the last episodes of BrewStrong on TheBrewingNetwork.

I think you could use your fermentor as a "starter" vessel but the contamination risk makes it not worth it IMHO.

 

[944play]

I think you could use your fermentor as a "starter" vessel but the contamination risk makes it not worth it IMHO.

What makes the starter more likely to be contaminated than the main beer? I think this is a great idea, and I'll try it the next time I want to grow up a big slug of yeast.

Plugging some numbers into the MrMalty calculator, it looks like one could pitch a single liquid lager yeast package into 2.5 gallons of 1.040 wort and only be slightly underpitching. That cake would be enough for a 5 gallon batch of 1.060ish wort. Bonus, a half batch of small beer!

 

[yemu]

What makes the starter more likely to be contaminated than the main beer?

Like someone said earlier it's not possible to sterilize the fermentor, that's my only doubt. And I think that sterility plays bigger role, when you start with a small cell count in a starter. On the other hand, according to what you say about calculations from mrmalty.com, if the pithing rate is close to optimal it should be possible to use the fermentor as a starter vessel, like fovehoursfree wants.

 

[fivehoursfree]

Like I said, I'm not really looking for anything too complicated, nor can I buy any more equipment, so I was just thinking of some ways to get the yeast going early before the main wort comes in. Really the idea was less to make a "starter" and more to make a small "cake".

The other idea I was just thinking about, since I am doing partial mashes, what would be the effects of boiling some of my extract the day(or 2) before, for 15 minutes, with maybe 2 gal, and pitching that on one day, then doing the rest of the boil the next day and adding it after the yeast has already gotten started on extract. I know the belgian dubbles sometimes call for adding another batch of fermentables after a week in the primary, so it would be similar to that, but only a day or two lag time.

Really I am trying to find a way to get the advantages of a yeast starter, without buying more things.

 

[Piotr]

Like I said, I'm not really looking for anything too complicated, nor can I buy any more equipment, so I was just thinking of some ways to get the yeast going early before the main wort comes in. Really the idea was less to make a "starter" and more to make a small "cake".

Yeah, some people do that. The disadvantage is that you have to make a small beer that you sometimes don't really need

Plus: starter is different than small batch of beer. Starter is made to grow yeast, not to ferment beer, it is heavily oxidized, not hopped etc. The yeast from starter are healhier and stronger, but the spent wort is not very tasty, you woudn't like to drink it.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I agree with Piotr. I learned this when I tried this same thing. Didn't taste it and pitched on top the "small beer" the batch tasted like dog a-s. What is produced is not what I consider beer. I think the risk of decanting from a large vessle is an accident waiting to happen. My 2 cents

 

[remilard]

Not 100% relevant but I heard a Jamil Show episode where he brews a 60 shilling Scottish with just an activator smack-pack and then uses the cake for his stronger Scottish brews. He likened it to a 5 gallon starter.

He doesn't repitch on the cake, he does his quasi washing thing.

 

[hopsoda]

Can you use an old mason jar as a flask for a yeast starter?
How do you make the starter? How much DME and water yeast exc?

I need to learn this as well. Mason jars are cheap / free and i dont know where to buy that lab equipment , If i had the money.

 

[yemu]

Can you use an old mason jar as a flask for a yeast starter?
How do you make the starter? How much DME and water yeast exc?

Of course you could use mason jars or glass milk bottles. Basically you have to make a 1.035-1.040 wort, - you can do this by adding 100g of dme to 1000ml of water (the basic rule is dme/water ratio should be 1g/10ml). than cool it and add yeast - one whitelabs vial or one wyeast smack pack is enough. and then cover with a piece of sanitized aluminium foil. then you have to shake it very often to provide oxygen, or better put it on a stir plate. it will be done in about 24-36 hours (it will significantly change color to lighter)

for more info read this: Fourteen Essential Questions About Yeast Starters

and listen to this:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/bs_starters12-22-08.mp3

 

[AnOldUR]

Plugging some numbers into the MrMalty calculator, it looks like one could pitch a single liquid lager yeast package into 2.5 gallons of 1.040 wort and only be slightly underpitching. That cake would be enough for a 5 gallon batch of 1.060ish wort. Bonus, a half batch of small beer!

This takes a little more planning ahead, but works great. Small SMaSH beers are a great way to use your starters as a learning experience.

Yeah, some people do that. The disadvantage is that you have to make a small beer that you sometimes don't really need

Huh! Beer that I don’t need?

 

[ChickenSoop]

Several months ago - I made a 3L starter, and put it right into my fermenter right away, then pitched my beer on top of it about 18 hours later. Aged 3 weeks in the fermenter, another 2 in the carboy.

Today - the beer has been aged 6 weeks in the bottle now, and it is a perfect beer, nothing strange about it. It's 60 Minute IPA.

After seeing the mixed comments in the past, I'd thought I would update with my single successful batch. I'll try this again.

 

[Jmiltime]

Been thinking about this too. I was wondering if I could essentially make a starter (boil 4oz DME and 1 quart water) then place directly into primary fermenter. Make wort the next day and pour directly on top of starter in primary. I would think this would actually be more sanitary since I would be skipping the extra transfer (from jar to primary).

Any comments on this would be appreciated.

 

[BuzzCraft]

Like I said, I'm not really looking for anything too complicated, nor can I buy any more equipment, so I was just thinking of some ways to get the yeast going early before the main wort comes in. Really the idea was less to make a "starter" and more to make a small "cake".

The other idea I was just thinking about, since I am doing partial mashes, what would be the effects of boiling some of my extract the day(or 2) before, for 15 minutes, with maybe 2 gal, and pitching that on one day, then doing the rest of the boil the next day and adding it after the yeast has already gotten started on extract. I know the belgian dubbles sometimes call for adding another batch of fermentables after a week in the primary, so it would be similar to that, but only a day or two lag time.

Really I am trying to find a way to get the advantages of a yeast starter, without buying more things.

you don't have to buy much...

for years, i used a 1 gallon cider jug and just swirled it intermittently. you can't boil in it, so i was still sanitizing with no-rinse sanitizer, but never had an infected starter.

cheap, easy....what's not to like.

 

[Jmiltime]

I know there is a ton of info on how to make starters and the equipment 'usually' used for it, I think the question is, why not create starter in primary fermenter and then pour wort on top? Is there a reason NOT to do this?

Thanks

 

[BuzzCraft]

I know there is a ton of info on how to make starters and the equipment 'usually' used for it, I think the question is, why not create starter in primary fermenter and then pour wort on top? Is there a reason NOT to do this?

Thanks

the OP also implied the supposition that more equipement needs to be bought, which is what i was refuting with my reply (and why i quoted his post).

reasons not to do it....a couple have been given already, although none of them are really deal killers IMO. i personally don't see a huge advantage to making a starter in a primary if it can be done just as cheaply otherwise (the point of my first response).

one thing that hasn't been mentioned as potential cons, is that if the starter turns out to be bad/infected, one should always have a back up plan. mine is to have an appropriate dry yeast on hand. i've never had to use it as a back up (i just use it when i'm too lazy to make a starter or do an impromptu brew session). however, if you found out your starter was bad, you have to re-sanitize the primary and wonder if you got rid of the bugs. again, not a deal killer, but i just don't see an advantage to using a primary. if using a bucket for a primary (versus a glass primary), i definitely wouldn't use it to make my starter, but that's another story.

 

[Jmiltime]

Cool, thanks for the info. I actually jumped on here because I was boiling my starter mixture and realized my wife used the gallon glass container I was planning on using to store something else in. I didnt have another container and thought I might as well just dump it in primary but wanted to check to see if anyone knew a reason I shouldn't. I did think of the back-up and I have another fermenter and a few packets of dry yeast on hand if I need them. Thanks for the info BuzzCraft. I know it is not perfect but is the only option I have right now. I have to head out to work in 45 min so don't have time to run out and look for another container. Hopefully everything will go okay. I appreciate your help!

 

[BuzzCraft]

i think it's most likely to work out just fin, so i wouldn't worry about it.

the more i think about it, the most compelling reason i can think of not to use the primary is that it's a little more difficult to find space to cold crash a primary versus a smaller container. depends on your school of thought on pitching starters, i guess (i.e. pitching at high krausen or waiting till later and decanting). i do the latter....ferment the starter, cold crash just after high krausen and decant the starter "beer" after it's clear.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I think it's a perfectly fine method.

It is true that you can't sterilize a carboy vs a flask but this shouldn't pose a problem given the small volume of starter compared to the amount of cells being pitched from a vial or pack. I only worry about sterile (vs sanitized) when I am building up yeast from a itty bitty 20mL slant vial that is going to be pitched into 10 gallons of beer.