Yeast Cake Viability

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OK, so have looked at a few threads, but would still like some opinions on my plan.

Setup:
I have a 6.5 primary in which I have brewed a dark Christmas Ale. I rack to my secondary leaving the yeast cake on Thursday. Immediately after racking I sanitize my stopper and close off the primary with the yeast cake at the bottom. (clearly during this process air will have entered the primary.) I leave the primary carboy with the yeast cake at room temp for 2-3 days.

Saturday or Sunday, I brew a stout. After chilling the wort, I pour it on top of the yeast cake and add water.

Questions:
1. Will the yeast still be viable after sitting two days? (its not really practical for me to refrigerate it.)

2. When I rack the first batch to the secondary, and air enters the primary carboy, do I doom my beautiful yeast cake to contamination?

Honesty:
1. I know it would be better to wash the yeast, but I am lazy.
 
sounds fine to me, have done this a few times and never had an issue. just be ready for an explosive fermentation, if you dont have a lot of head space in your vessel use a blowoff tube ...
 
I think Sunblock is right. If you are really concerned leave a tiny layer of beer.. OR wait to rack to secondary until brew day for the next batch. It will only benefit....... or look up yeast washing and try that.......or do what I did, open up a new ziploc baggie and stick it over the mouth of the carboy, turn the carboy up and dump about a pint of trub into the ziploc....seal and toss in the fridge until sat or sun. when you brew , snip the corner off the ziploc with scissors and squeeze the trub into your new batch of beer.
 
I think Sunblock is right. If you are really concerned leave a tiny layer of beer.. OR wait to rack to secondary until brew day for the next batch. It will only benefit....... or look up yeast washing and try that.......or do what I did, open up a new ziploc baggie and stick it over the mouth of the carboy, turn the carboy up and dump about a pint of trub into the ziploc....seal and toss in the fridge until sat or sun. when you brew , snip the corner off the ziploc with scissors and squeeze the trub into your new batch of beer.

The whole reusing yeast thing is blowing my mind and I don't quite understand the whole thing yet. I have an Irish Stout Brewer's Best kit in primary now. After it sets there for 4 weeks and I rack off the delicousness, can I scoop out some of the trub and use it on say...... an oatmeal stout? I'm still doing the extract kit thing because I'm newish (I do have the proper equipment for AG actually) and it's focking cold in Ohio right now.
If I can reuse this how much do I use? You said refrigerate until I'm ready to pitch, but I should bring it back up to pitching temp by leaving it on the counter for a couple hours or something right?
 
The whole reusing yeast thing is blowing my mind and I don't quite understand the whole thing yet. I have an Irish Stout Brewer's Best kit in primary now. After it sets there for 4 weeks and I rack off the delicousness, can I scoop out some of the trub and use it on say...... an oatmeal stout? I'm still doing the extract kit thing because I'm newish (I do have the proper equipment for AG actually) and it's focking cold in Ohio right now.
If I can reuse this how much do I use? You said refrigerate until I'm ready to pitch, but I should bring it back up to pitching temp by leaving it on the counter for a couple hours or something right?

Nothing wrong with doing this provided you are happy with using the same strain of yeast for both the Irish stout and the oatmeal stout.

Refrigeration forces the yeast into cold shock...cold shock is a metabolic state in which metabolic processes are severely restricted, and hence, cold shock slows their reproduction time (length of time between budding events).

In the past, I have taken a 1 cup (using a kitchen measuring cup) scoop and put it into a vessel with 500-1000mL of fresh starter media, swirl it to resuspend the yeast...then just put it in the fridge with a loose cap/cover (so it can vent). Try to scoop from about the middle of the trub-depth to the top (I try not to get to the bottom of the carboy). Note that this is a general method I have used in the past...your long term method will have to be determined with trial and error, to get the correct population of cells in your starter for the next pitch.
NOTE: if you continually harvest your yeast in this manner, you can select for lower flocculating genetic strains (just a thought to keep in mind...but this should take many generations).

If you want to decrease the potential for contamination from the air, you can stuff sterile cotton (or part of a t-shirt) in the mouth of the carboy around the siphen hose...not perfect, but will help reduce the potential for contamination...this will make your siphoning slower if it is actually doing anything to filter the air. I did this a couple of times, then decided it wasn't worth the effort.

When you are ready to pitch, I generally let the yeast warm to pitching temp...but some pitch it cold. I personally think yeast should be at the correct fermentation temp before pitching - others would argue that it is not necessary. In my opinion, I want to pitch yeast that are happy, and healthy, but hungry...if they have to wake up out of cold shock, it will take them longer to get busy doing the business of replicating and fermenting (again, just my opinion).

Another method of harvesting your yeast (if it will be longer than a few days/1 week before you use it) is to collect around 100mL of your beer when you siphon it off, and add it to around 500mL of fresh starter media, then just stick it in the fridge. It will slowly grow over the storage time...if you don't think there is enough yeast to pitch by the time you are ready to use it, warm it up for a few hours (maybe as long as a day) before you start your next batch...again, this will take some trial and error to get it right.

There are a bunch of different methods of doing this...don't be afraid to try a few and determine which works best for you. The main idea is to keep the yeast alive by providing them some fresh nutrients for short term storage, and to keep them cold so they stay in cold-shock.

If you really want to reuse your yeast to cheapen up your beer...consider glycerol stocks if you have a freezer.

Hope this helps,
PikledBill
 
The whole reusing yeast thing is blowing my mind and I don't quite understand the whole thing yet. I have an Irish Stout Brewer's Best kit in primary now. After it sets there for 4 weeks and I rack off the delicousness, can I scoop out some of the trub and use it on say...... an oatmeal stout? I'm still doing the extract kit thing because I'm newish (I do have the proper equipment for AG actually) and it's focking cold in Ohio right now.
If I can reuse this how much do I use? You said refrigerate until I'm ready to pitch, but I should bring it back up to pitching temp by leaving it on the counter for a couple hours or something right?

Where are you located in Ohio?
 
Jingle:

Yup 2-3 days you'll be fine. I've let my yeast cake sit in the fermenter a couple weeks one time, and had no problems at all. I just poured another batch of wort right on top and the fermentation kicked off very fast and furious. Maybe just "seal" up the fermenter to try to keep moister in to avoid drying out the yeast, but even then, I think you'd be fine!
 
Thank you for the write up, Pickledbill. I think Notty was what I used with the Irish Stout (came with the kit). Is there any good reason not to use it in an Oatmeal Stout?

And what are glycerol stocks? Where can I read about that? (I am responding before I have attempted any searches.)




Where are you located in Ohio?


Clark county.
 
Thank you for the write up, Pickledbill. I think Notty was what I used with the Irish Stout (came with the kit). Is there any good reason not to use it in an Oatmeal Stout?

And what are glycerol stocks? Where can I read about that? (I am responding before I have attempted any searches.)







Clark county.

springfield.... I am in shelby , about a half mile from Champagne so you are not too far away.
 
I am not sure it is worth it to harvest dry yeast. Maybe re-pitch on to of a yeast cake but dry yeast is so cheap it would be cheaper to just buy a packet of dry yeast instead of DME. Bernie Brewer had a very good writeup on yeast harvesting.
 
I am not sure it is worth it to harvest dry yeast. Maybe re-pitch on to of a yeast cake but dry yeast is so cheap it would be cheaper to just buy a packet of dry yeast instead of DME. Bernie Brewer had a very good writeup on yeast harvesting.

I think the next one I want to do is an oatmeal stout from AHS. I was thinking that if I could save 6 bucks (that's how much extra they charge for the recommended yeast) it would make the beer that much cheaper. Extract kits are terribly expensive in comparison already. I wasn't really harvest and wash and keep ongoing, just reuse once because the time lines will line up.
 
I am not sure it is worth it to harvest dry yeast. Maybe re-pitch on to of a yeast cake but dry yeast is so cheap it would be cheaper to just buy a packet of dry yeast instead of DME. Bernie Brewer had a very good writeup on yeast harvesting.
to me its not about the 2-3 bucks I save, it is just another cool thing to do with the hobby.
 
This thread is helpful. On a side note I was listening to papazian today in an interview and he was talking about how he's had 1 strain of yeast going for 23 years. Thought that was interesting ...
 
Thank you for the write up, Pickledbill. I think Notty was what I used with the Irish Stout (came with the kit). Is there any good reason not to use it in an Oatmeal Stout?

And what are glycerol stocks? Where can I read about that? (I am responding before I have attempted any searches.)







Clark county.

No reason not to use it if it worked to your liking for your Irish stout...look at the growth profile and make sure it matches what you are looking for in your oatmeal stout. I have never used Notty, so I don't know its characteristics....sorry. I use wy1084 for my oatmeal cream stout...but that is just me.

Glycerol stocks are simply a long-term method of storing yeast (making a yeast library)...you should be able to find information with a quick search...yeast slants are another method of longer term storage of yeast...but I personally prefer glycerol stocks.

Good luck,
PikledBill
 
No reason not to use it if it worked to your liking for your Irish stout...look at the growth profile and make sure it matches what you are looking for in your oatmeal stout. I have never used Notty, so I don't know its characteristics....sorry. I use wy1084 for my oatmeal cream stout...but that is just me.

Glycerol stocks are simply a long-term method of storing yeast (making a yeast library)...you should be able to find information with a quick search...yeast slants are another method of longer term storage of yeast...but I personally prefer glycerol stocks.

Good luck,
PikledBill


HA! Growth profile...... as if I had a clue what I would be looking at..... Thanks for the info. One step at a time.

EDIT: Wow! Doing some reading on yeast strains, ale v lager, liquid v dry, etc. This is a lot of info. So how long is washed yeast good for if kept in a fridge? A couple months? A Year?
I am thinking about all of the posibilites. This hobby is like crack and if I can do something else fun and exciting then awesome. Expecially if it saves me a couple bucks and gives me greater flexibility.
 
HA! Growth profile...... as if I had a clue what I would be looking at..... Thanks for the info. One step at a time.

EDIT: Wow! Doing some reading on yeast strains, ale v lager, liquid v dry, etc. This is a lot of info. So how long is washed yeast good for if kept in a fridge? A couple months? A Year?
I am thinking about all of the posibilites. This hobby is like crack and if I can do something else fun and exciting then awesome. Expecially if it saves me a couple bucks and gives me greater flexibility.

yeah, sorry about that...it was kind of a generalized answer to a yeast question because I didn't know anything about "Notty"...looks like you got your answer from STEVE: if Notty is a generic dry package ale yeast, I agree...no need to try and keep it. If you want a good stout yeast, try wy1084.

"So how long is washed yeast good for if kept in a fridge? A couple months? A Year?"

It is just like a woman...will be pleasant and forgiving as long as you try to treat it well...keeping an active stored starter requires a bit of time to keep healthy for long term (a month-indefinate).

"This hobby is like crack and if I can do something else fun and exciting then awesome. Expecially if it saves me a couple bucks and gives me greater flexibility"

yup...I hear you...as addictive as it gets!!

Have fun,
PikledBill
 
wyeast 1028, white labs wlp005, are what is suggested with the kit. What are your thoughts on either of those? any experience? Would one of them be worth a shot at keeping?
Now I'm all hot and bothered about washing some yeast I think I'm going to plan the next two brews so that I can attempt this. And have an extra package of yeast waiting in the fridge incase I screw it up.
 
wyeast 1028, white labs wlp005, are what is suggested with the kit. What are your thoughts on either of those? any experience? Would one of them be worth a shot at keeping?
Now I'm all hot and bothered about washing some yeast I think I'm going to plan the next two brews so that I can attempt this. And have an extra package of yeast waiting in the fridge incase I screw it up.

1028 is a good strain for stout...I have used it. Can't comment on wlp005, never used it...I am sure many others around here have used it. If your kit says it is good, it is probably good.

Any specific strain that you think you like...or may want to use again is worth keeping. I have a pretty good sized library of yeast that I have collected over the years. Every time I buy a new yeast, I make a glycerol stock.

Get a set of instructions for washing the yeast, and go for it.:mug:

The only advice I would give you is that there are very few hard and fast rules that MUST be followed...one that MUST be followed is good sterile technique when culturing/saving your yeast.

By keeping back your own stocks of yeast, you can essential cut down the costs of your batch, attributable to yeast purchase, to zero (around a dollar per batch).
 
I am not sure it is worth it to harvest dry yeast. Maybe re-pitch on to of a yeast cake but dry yeast is so cheap it would be cheaper to just buy a packet of dry yeast instead of DME. Bernie Brewer had a very good writeup on yeast harvesting.

I have been re=pitching on US-05 ( dry originally ) because of two reasons -
1) I love the way the fermentation takes off like an explosion, and
2) I am making some recipe tinkering that are just one step over being SMaSHes, and want to carry a strain through a progression of extra light, light, amber / dark. Kinda the geek in me I guess....
 
I do this all the time. I have an oatmeal stout that I racked onto an S-23 yeast cake (dry lager yeast) a week ago. And I have a German Pilsner, mashing right now, that will go onto a week-old Wyeast 2007 (liquid lager) yeast cake.
 
cwaite,

sounds like my negative comment regarding dry yeast, was out of line...I have only used one dry yeast - it came with my very first kit. I have been very happy with wyeast, so I always use them...not that they are better or worse than other strains.

From the sounds of the comments, there are good strains of dry out there that are worth keeping in a library. I was talking more about a "generic ale" yeast. I have never investigated dry yeasts.

The nice thing about keeping a library is that you can experiment with blending yeast strains for fermentation. I don't see/hear a lot of people talk about this, but it adds a whole new dimension to the possibilities of flavor profile. Bad part: you can never harvest yeast from the trub once they are blended.

All I have is encouragement for the idea of harvesting.:mug:

Cheers,
PikledBill
 
Bad part: you can never harvest yeast from the trub once they are blended.

I've always had good luck separating yeast from trub when "washing" yeast?

If you leave a bit of beer in your stored, washed yeast, the yeast will last a pretty long time in the fridge. At least 6 months. I have revived yeast from small 1 oz vials using pint sized starters, than stepping up to 2 quart starters. Washed, and stored yeast will start dying (and turning peanut-butter colored) in about 5-6 months, but there's usually enough live cells to get a starter going.
 
I've always had good luck separating yeast from trub when "washing" yeast?

If you leave a bit of beer in your stored, washed yeast, the yeast will last a pretty long time in the fridge. At least 6 months. I have revived yeast from small 1 oz vials using pint sized starters, than stepping up to 2 quart starters. Washed, and stored yeast will start dying (and turning peanut-butter colored) in about 5-6 months, but there's usually enough live cells to get a starter going.


My point about not being able to separate was specifically for "blended" strains. I was talking about taking two different strains of yeast and adding them together when pitching/fermenting. Once they have been "blended", they cannot be separated from the trub - without some serious genetic analysis.

Just a clarification.

Cheers,
Pikledbill
 
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