Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[MrCrabby]

I currently have a Saison fermenting with 3724. After over a month around 75 degrees it was only at 1.020. Swirled to reawaken the yeasties, and it's now sitting outside (wrapped in lots of blankets) in 90 degree heat. I'll give it a day or two and see if that does the trick.
I did underpitch initially, though, only using one smack pack. I'm planning on doing a slightly different Saison using some of the slurry. It'll be interesting to see the difference in pitching the correct amount of this yeast.

 

[g-star]

The key to getting this strain to attenuate is to pitch the correct amount of yeast, add simple sugar just after high krausen, and slowly ramp the temperature up into the low 80's over the course of about 5-7 days. Works every time.

 

[ten80]

I did as g-star said, but I ramped up to 90F over the course of a week.

 

[wtgarrett]

Slow to start? Please help! I brewed up 11 gal of a DuPont(ish) clone on Friday 6/6 (85% belg pilsner) all went well, hit numbers all the way through (150 deg mash, 75 min boil & mash). OG 1.048. I split 5.5 gal into 2 fermentors & pitched 1 3724 swelled up smack pack into each @ about 80 deg. I pitched at noon on the 6th and now on the 8th the most activity I have seen is - 1 fermentor gives me one bubble about every 30 sec and the other - nothing.... Temp has held 78-80 since pitch.
Did I mess it all up? What too do? Is this normal for not making a starter. I have never used the smack pack before, or this yeast.
Thanks in advance.

 

[evillalon]

You probably needed to make a 3-4 liter starter. One smack pack is barely even enough for a 5 gallon batch assuming that it isnt very old.

 

[evillalon]

I mis-read that. I see you put one smack pack into each 5.5 g batch. Still barely enough though. Would have made the 3-4 liter starter and split it into two. Maybe try ramping the temp up? If you can get two more smack packs you can try pitching them.

 

[wtgarrett]

Thanks, but unfortunately no HBS locally. All mail order. I could order some more but I don't want this stuff to go bad and pour good into bad... I have some S05 on hand and a friend with some liquid ale yeast....

 

[evillalon]

Since it is holding temp, it is probably actively fermenting enough. It might just have a longer lag time while the yeast is busy reproducing to handle the load. At this point since adding more 3724 is not an option I'd just ramp up the temps and RDWHAHB. Just make sure the temps don't swing down very far. Do you have temp control?

 

[wtgarrett]

Thank for the info! No temp control, but it is holding @ 80 in the garage. I think I'll give it a month or so an see what happens...

 

[MrCrabby]

Ok, so after 4 days outside in 90+ degree heat the hydrometer still reads around 1.015. Even with underpitching, I can't believe it's finishing this slowly.
As much as I am loath to use secondary vessels, I'll thinking I may transfer it to another carboy and hope that jump starts the finishing process.
I have also considered taking some of the slurry, making a starter, and re-pitching it at high krausen. Is this a valid technique?
Or maybe I should just be more patient...

 

[lousbrews]

Ok, so after 4 days outside in 90+ degree heat the hydrometer still reads around 1.015. Even with underpitching, I can't believe it's finishing this slowly.
As much as I am loath to use secondary vessels, I'll thinking I may transfer it to another carboy and hope that jump starts the finishing process.
I have also considered taking some of the slurry, making a starter, and re-pitching it at high krausen. Is this a valid technique?
Or maybe I should just be more patient...

Patience my friend. Question, what temp did you mash at?

 

[MrCrabby]

Patience my friend. Question, what temp did you mash at?

Sorry, it was an extract brew. I expect it to finish a little high, but not 1.015. It's waayy too sweet.

 

[lousbrews]

Sorry, it was an extract brew. I expect it to finish a little high, but not 1.015. It's waayy too sweet.

Ah I see. Which kind of extract did you use as different extracts have different amounts of fermentable sugars. The less you got the higher the final gravity.

Check here
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm details

 

[sweetcell]

Ok, so after 4 days outside in 90+ degree heat the hydrometer still reads around 1.015.

give it more time. it might be 90*F during the day but cooler at night. those temp swings can be confusing for yeast. can you somehow stabilize temps? put a sleeping bag around it at night, or submerge the carboy in a big tub of water to increase its thermal mass, etc.

Even with underpitching, I can't believe it's finishing this slowly.

if you didn't add enough cells to get the job done, you shouldn't be surprised when the job isn't done

yeast can only ferment so much sugar. there is a limit. if the underpitch is so severe as to create a permanent problem, time isn't going to fix the issue. don't know if that's your case tho.

As much as I am loath to use secondary vessels, I'll thinking I may transfer it to another carboy and hope that jump starts the finishing process.

i would do this as a last resort. i'd be concerned about oxidation. if you do follow this route, be sure to bring the yeast cake with you. you're going to need those cells. first i would:

I have also considered taking some of the slurry, making a starter, and re-pitching it at high krausen. Is this a valid technique?

yup. growing up some new, healthy yeast and pitching it at its most active should get things going again in the now warmer beer.

Or maybe I should just be more patient...

always a good approach!

 

[MrCrabby]

You all are so wise.
I think I'll call this beer Shirley, as in slowly but Shirley.

Sent from my VS920 4G using Home Brew mobile app

 

[bjornkri]

Using this for the first time now, made a starter and pitched in the mid 70s, had airlock activity within a couple of hours and it raised itself almost to 80... But after 20 hours there's no more bubbling that I can see, and the temps seem to be going down again. Ambient temps about 72, but it's wrapped in a blanket, was hoping that would do. Thinking of raising it to 85 by putting it in the bath tub for a while and see if that does anything, or should I just be patient?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[grizzly2378]

Just brewed with 3724 for the first time yesterday. I made a 2L starter on Friday and kept it in our water boiler room, which stays in the mid 80s, maybe even low 90s, constantly. The starter was still active when I pitched it into my saison yesterday evening...I pitched everything, no cold crash and decant like I normally do...wanted to pitch it while it was still active to get a running start. When I checked it this morning it was cranking and the temp was off the scale of the fermometer on the side of the better bottle, which I placed in the same boiler room to keep the temp up. We'll see how long and how low it goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bjornkri]

I've given it a bath a couple of times to bump up the temps to high 80s, but it keeps dropping back down to 78, but does seem to stabilize there so I guess it's still fermenting. Very slowly though, it went down from 1.052 to 1.036 in 24 hours, but then only down to 1.034 in the 36 hours after that. Gave it another bath to bump it up to 90, but now I'm going to leave it alone for a week or so before checking again.

 

[grizzly2378]

Haven't checked the gravity yet on the saison I brewed on Sunday, but I suspect I may be stalling out. It was cranking really hard for a day or so, but now the krausen has dropped and the blowoff tube is silent. I tried rousing it a bit and moving it to a slightly warmer location, so we'll see what happens. I'll give it time and if nothing else just pitch some Belle Saison dry yeast to finish it off.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[tagz]

If this was a first gen pitch, don't torture yourself; just pitch the belle. Although you might consider harvesting the 3724 first.

 

[poptarts]

Ive read that that yeast can take a solid two months to hit terminal gravity. I would just toss it in the garage and leave it alone.

 

[ndsgr]

Just curious, how are you guys with difficulties oxygenating?

 

[grizzly2378]

Took a gravity reading today, 4 days into fermentation, and I'm down to 1.024, so looks like I've broken through the dreaded 1.030 barrier at least. Wort temp was right at 90 degrees. Plan on letting it sit a good long while and see how far down it goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[MrCrabby]

Just shy of two months and the gravity is finally just below 1.010, which would put it around the listed 76-80% attenuation from wyeast. The hydro sample still tastes a bit sweet (could be from the honey malt I used), but I doubt it'll go much lower at this point. I'll give it a couple more days and then bottle.

 

[g-star]

My 1.057 Saison just hit 1.005 in 5 days with this strain. This technique has never failed me:

1. Mash for fermentability < 150F
2. Pitch at 0.8 - 1.0M cells/ml
3. Oxygenate with pure O2
4. Pitch at 68F and hold for 36-48hrs.
5. At 48hrs, add 0.5lbs plain sugar per 5gal
6. Ramp temp 2F every 12hrs to 80F and hold until TG.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bjornkri]

My 1.057 Saison just hit 1.005 in 5 days with this strain. This technique has never failed me:

1. Mash for fermentability < 150F
2. Pitch at 0.8 - 1.0M cells/ml
3. Oxygenate with pure O2
4. Pitch at 68F and hold for 36-48hrs.
5. At 48hrs, add 0.5lbs plain sugar per 5gal
6. Ramp temp 2F every 12hrs to 80F and hold until TG.

I'm currently on day 6, will do a gravity reading later on but probably too late to add sugar now if it's stuck... In any case, for next time, may I ask what do you mean by plain sugar and how do you add it in? Just table sugar, dissolved in a bit of boiling water?

 

[g-star]

I'm currently on day 6, will do a gravity reading later on but probably too late to add sugar now if it's stuck... In any case, for next time, may I ask what do you mean by plain sugar and how do you add it in? Just table sugar, dissolved in a bit of boiling water?

Yes, I dissolve 8oz of plain table sugar in about 1 cup of boiling water and store it in a sanitized mason jar. Once I see that activity has peaked at about 36-48 hours, I add the room temp. sugar syrup directly to the carboy.

Feeding the yeast simple sugar after high krausen and ramping the temp 2F every 12 hours keeps activity going strong and avoids the stalling problems this strain is known for.

 

[bjornkri]

Two weeks in and it's down to 1.016. I added some sugar one week in and that seemed to help it get out of the 20s. Been a bit sluggish but not that bad. I don't have any way of controlling the temps really well, so I give it a warm bath every two days and then keep it wrapped in blankets in between. Won't be using this one again until I get a better setup.

But I have to say, the hydrometer samples are delicious.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[grizzly2378]

Took another reading today and mine is at 1.016. I brewed on Fathers Day, so a few weeks ago. There are zero signs of active fermentation, but the SG is dropping slowly but surely. Temp of the sample I took was 90 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[grizzly2378]

One month after brewing and my saison is down to 1.010. I've roused the yeast a couple times by gently swirling the carboy and the wort temp has been at around 90 ever since I pitched. I'll let it ride a few more weeks to see if I get another few points, but I'm fine if it's done too.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Snarks]

Stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.025. Darn it, should have read this thread first! Held my fermentation way too low (for two weeks). Could have just taken advantage of Southern California summer! Now gonna have to do this the slow way . . . gave 'er a good, stiff swirl and have got 'er all snuggled up with a heating pad and wrapped in wool army blankets. Check back in about a week . . .

. . . could I just pitch a new yeast packet or is it way too late for that?

 

[rhythmsteve]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

You ever used this yeast?. My current batch has been at 90+ for a few weeks. It's gone from 1.025, to 1.006. Got about a week to go I reckon. This yeast is worth the wait IMHO.

 

[Snarks]

Sheesh, no idea how I'm going to get it up to 90+ unless we have a major heat wave. Right now it's sitting about 76 and bubbling every 6-7 seconds. I'm going to take that as a good sign. Too bad I can't leave the heating pad on overnight.

 

[sweetcell]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast

90*F will not kill yeast. in fact yeast are happier at 90 than at 65-70, however they tend to produce a lot of off-flavors at those temps... well, most yeasts. the dupont strain produces flavors we want at 90. but even lager yeast will be very happy at 90.

Sheesh, no idea how I'm going to get it up to 90+ unless we have a major heat wave.

in order to get & keep it that warm, you need to add heat via a brew belt, heating pad, heating blanket, etc.

 

[grizzly2378]

Mine has been at 90 degrees since I pitched it on 6/15. Checked today and the gravity is at 1.006. It's been slowly but steadily dropping for the past 5 weeks. Now the question is, how low will it go?

I had zero problems with this yeast. Pitched a healthy 2L starter and kept it warm (very warm) and it has marched right along.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[g-star]

Mine has been at 90 degrees since I pitched it on 6/15. Checked today and the gravity is at 1.006.

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.

This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.

Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

 

[grizzly2378]

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.



This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.



Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

To be clear, I pitched at 68 and let the temp free rise after that. Wyeast themselves suggest temps up to 90 and several weeks may be required to finish off. As for nasty off flavors, I detected none in the samples I've tried. Just the saison funkiness I chose the yeast for in the first place.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[mccabedoug]

I read up on 3724 and decided to use it anyway for the first time this summer. I pitched on Aug 3 and raised the temp to 90oF during the course of a day. The OG went from 1.060 to 1.035 in 4 days. I figured I was good to go. I also figured wrong. It sat at 1.035 for 2 weeks (while at exactly 90oF). I added a tsp of yeast nutrient, gave the bucket a stir and waited another week (still at 90oF). Now I am at 1.020. Like any other cheap brewer, I would like to re-use the 3724 yeast cake in subsequent beers so I am avoiding just adding US05.

So, I am going to give it another week since I am not brewing this week and will not brew Labor Day weekend either (out of town). However, if it is still stuck next week I am going to siphon off the stuck beer and pitch some US05 onto it. I can then save the remaining 3724 yeast cake for re-pitching.

Like a lot of other people have said: this yeast is unlike any others I have used in my 10+ years of brewing. Looking forward to the results, however.

 

[mccabedoug]

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.

This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.

Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60