Wyeast 3056 ester/phenol/fermentation question

[rtstrider]

I brewed a hefe with 3056 11 days ago (1/21). The wort fermented pretty quick (5 days) and the yeast flavors have been developing more since then. I took a sample at 7 and 8 days (tiny maybe 1 oz sample) to measure gravity and taste. Both samples were all banana with zero hint of clove. I tried a sample today at 11 days and the clove has come out and it's pretty balanced now. The gravity readings have not changed on the refractometer either so fermentation is definitely complete. My question would be is it normal for the phenols to come out days after the esters? If so should I wait a few more days before bottling or will these flavors continue to develop in the bottles? I was planning on bottling either tomorrow night or saturday morning. So far this hefe is right in line with what I want and is very balanced! More so than the 3068 so I will def be using 3056 again.

 

[okiedog]

What was your fermentation profile, temps etc.? Clove being a phenolic and banana an ester, they are developed through different processes. After the yeast has had time to clean up a bit, maybe the cleaner flavor allows the clove to be more noticeable. In the beers that I have brewed with 3056, clove was the bigger flavor component, with very little banana. It does take time for some character in beer to fully develop. Your beer may be close to or at terminal gravity after 5 days, but it is not finished. It is still has work to do.

 

[rtstrider]

I started out fermentation in a water bath. Water bath temps were around 60f-62f for the first 4 days. I pulled the bucket from the water bath and left in ambient temps of 64f-68f and it's been there ever since. I've always heard to bottle/keg/drink wheats early (bottle/keg 14 days)

 

[okiedog]

That sounds good. So you got plenty of banana, and clove? I've always found the 3056 blend fairly mild on yeast derived character, and usually choose that if I want to add fruit or fruit extracts. Also, I keg most of my ales at 14 days, but you could probably keg or bottle and start chilling this after 10-11 days. I'd like to get an update on this after you've been drinking it a while.
Prost!

 

[Smellyglove]

I've experienced that the phenoles get some more room to play in when the esters subsides. Esters are often masking the phenols, but they might be short lived. I've been using 3068 and a lot of 380, and five days in it's a bananabomb, at day 10 maybe it's less banana, and the phenols get out more.

 

[FermentedCulture]

What was your mash schedule?

 

[rtstrider]

I mashed for 60 min at 150. This was biab so it was a single infusion

 

[FermentedCulture]

That'll be one thing contributing to it. You don't need to do a ferulic acid rest to get cloves because POF+ yeast converts the precursors in malt, especially wheat malt, to ferulic acid then to 4VG + 4VP, aka phenols.

If your beer is exactly how you like it I'd highly recommend getting it as close to 0°C as you might be able to retain the same flavour profile. Over time the esters, especially isoamyl acetate (banana) will subside. If you leave it even longer the phenols will turn to vanilla flavours (months).

edit: Apologies I didn't see the second part about bottling. Yes bottle it if there no diacetyl. The esters will continue to subside after the beer is fully carbonated (at the end of it's refermentation), and after a longer time the phenols will change also.

 

[FatWoody]

I know I'm in danger of resurrecting a dead thread here, but I think you meant, "You do need to do a ferulic acid rest..." Although I'm sure this, like all things homebrew, is subject to debate.

Also, at least according to Master Brewer Hans-Peter Drexler at Schneider & Sohn, it's the barley that provides most of the ferulic acid in their weissbiers, which I just discovered myself while researching Weizenbocks.

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-ferulic-acid-rest/

You don't need to do a ferulic acid rest to get cloves because POF+ yeast converts the precursors in malt, especially wheat malt, to ferulic acid then to 4VG + 4VP, aka phenols.