WTF is up with my Step Mash beer????

[shagington]

Hey everyone!
I could really use some help on this brew! I recently put some information from BYO Magazine and "Brew Like A Monk" regarding Brewery Ommegang's Step Mashing schedule to good use in my American Tripel recipe. I was very happy with my original and final gravities, however the body and flavor are very big and cloyingly sweet. I completely understand that every system is different and conversion rates/times will change drastically, but I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me narrow down where I might have gone wrong with this beer???

The grist was: 83% - European Pilsner, 14% - Domino Cane Sugar, 1.5% - Belgian Aromatic Malt, and 1.5% - American Wheat Malt
The hop bill was: 50 IBU – Citra @ 60 minutes, 6 IBU – Citra @ 15 minutes, 3.5 IBU – Cascade @ 15 minutes and aroma additions (equal parts) of Citra and Cascade at flameout
Original Gravity = 20 Plato, Final Gravity = 2 Plato, IBU’s = 60

The Step Mash Schedule was, Protein rest @ 113F for 10 minutes, 10 minutes raise time to 144F and hold 30 minutes, 5 minute raise time to 153F and hold 20 minutes, 5 minute raise time to 165F and hold 15 minutes, then Mash-out (drain time of 30 minutes). Batch sparge at 170F, holding for 20 minutes, then run-off over 30 minutes.

The boil lasted 90 minutes and I pitched a gallon starter on to the beer at 65F, allowing it to ferment at 67F for the first 48 hours, then rise up to 70F for the final 8 days, making it a total of 10 days for fermentation.

My only thought is that my SABCO Brew Magic System didn’t have enough time to produce those small, highly fermentable sugars at the 144F rest, so with the final 153F rest it produced more of the larger, less fermentable sugars, making the beer cloyingly sweet and bigger in body. I mean the protein rest worked miracles and the beer has no apparent chill haze and a nice Belgian foamy head, but I’m lost as to why the beer fermented so well, but still is bigger in body and so sweet. Any thoughts?

 

[maida7]

oops i see the gravity info in the post now. everything looks good.

Perhaps it just needs more carbonation.

 

[shagington]

The carbonation is actually really good, like I said it has a nice rocky/creamy foam stand with those little Belgian bubbles. I'm a bit lost where I went wrong...

 

[kanzimonson]

Man that is so weird. This is the first time somebody has posted something that I literally have no advice to give. I was thinking the saccharification times could have been longer but your attenuation is great. I thought it might not be bitter enough but that doesn't look like a problem. I thought something might be wrong with the fermentation but it looks like you know what's up.

I'm completely stumped. Maybe you just don't like your own beer's style?!?!?

 

[Sizz]

Temp probes calibrated?

 

[shagington]

Man that is so weird. This is the first time somebody has posted something that I literally have no advice to give. I was thinking the saccharification times could have been longer but your attenuation is great. I thought it might not be bitter enough but that doesn't look like a problem. I thought something might be wrong with the fermentation but it looks like you know what's up.

I'm completely stumped. Maybe you just don't like your own beer's style?!?!?

Maybe you're right on the not liking of my beer's style, but I hope not. Could the sweetness issue come from hop utilization? In the sense that when I boil, I keep my flame on low so that the boil is more of a simmer. I mean you can see the wort in the kettle moving and the hop particles moving around in there, but its not vigorous and "jumping" out of the kettle.

 

[maida7]

Perhaps it's just your perception. Sometimes when there are flavors that we associate with sweetness our mind is fooled into tasting it as sweet when it's really not.

Perhaps the fruity esters and the fruity hops tell your brain that it's fruit and your brain says fruit is sweet. Your brain is conditioned that when it tastes apples, pears, and citrus flavor that it must be sweet.

Give the beer some time to age. The hops and esters will fade. It may taste much better.

 

[Pilgarlic]

The final gravity seems to me to be utterly inconsistent with the "cloyingly sweet" description. Since I trust your reporting of the taste, I must question the FG reading. You did use a hydrometer and not a refractometer?

 

[shagington]

Temp probes calibrated?

I'm using 4 different thermometers. A digital temperature probe at the out valve of the mash-tun as it recirculates, a dial thermometer at the out valve of the mash-tun as it recirculates, a digital in the actual mash-tun and a lab thermometer in the actual mash-tun.

 

[maida7]

Maybe you're right on the not liking of my beer's style, but I hope not. Could the sweetness issue come from hop utilization? In the sense that when I boil, I keep my flame on low so that the boil is more of a simmer. I mean you can see the wort in the kettle moving and the hop particles moving around in there, but its not vigorous and "jumping" out of the kettle.

no a simmer will get very good utilization.

BUT... If the liquid does not turn over in the boil you could have an issue with DMS. Does it taste like creamed corn?

 

[shagington]

The final gravity seems to me to be utterly inconsistent with the "cloyingly sweet" description. Since I trust your reporting of the taste, I must question the FG reading. You did use a hydrometer and not a refractometer?

I used two hydrometers, my original hydrometer and a new one I bought that day because I couldn't believe that I had such a high apparent attenuation percentage. Both were used at the 64F temperature range.

 

[pjj2ba]

How young is this beer and what yeast did you use? I like to use While labs Saison II strain and the yeast itself has a very sweet taste to it. I find that if I'm drinking this beer young and the yeast haven't settled the beer will taste very sweet. Eventually it settles out, but even then I find this yeast gives me body/sweetness level above what the FG would have you believe. I got dinged once in a comp as they said the FG was too high, even though it was close to the bottom of the range for the style.

I had a keg of a Saison the had cleared nicely and was tasting great. When the Keg was about half gone, I had to move it for some reason and the next couple of pints had a bunch of yeast in them (naturally carbed) and these pints were noticeably sweeter that it had been before stirring it up.

I would think 30 min. @ 144 would be sufficient. When I make a malt forward beer (Helles, Bock, O'fest) with a higher target FG, I like to do 20 min. for the first sacch. rest and then 20 min. for the second (~158). I use the same temps for a pilsner, but do 30 min. and 10 min. for the 1st, and 2nd steps respectively

 

[shagington]

no a simmer will get very good utilization.

BUT... If the liquid does not turn over in the boil you could have an issue with DMS. Does it taste like creamed corn?

I've had a beer turn out like that DMS/vegetable character and this one doesn't have it. If i were to liken it too a commercial example, I would say almost "HOUBLON CHOUFFE Dobbelen IPA Tripel", which is what I was aiming for. That or the Captain Lawrence Xtra Gold.

 

[shagington]

How young is this beer and what yeast did you use? I like to use While labs Saison II strain and the yeast itself has a very sweet taste to it. I find that if I'm drinking this beer young and the yeast haven't settled the beer will taste very sweet. Eventually it settles out, but even then I find this yeast gives me body/sweetness level above what the FG would have you believe. I got dinged once in a comp as they said the FG was too high, even though it was close to the bottom of the range for the style.

I had a keg of a Saison the had cleared nicely and was tasting great. When the Keg was about half gone, I had to move it for some reason and the next couple of pints had a bunch of yeast in them (naturally carbed) and these pints were noticeably sweeter that it had been before stirring it up.

I would think 30 min. @ 144 would be sufficient. When I make a malt forward beer (Helles, Bock, O'fest) with a higher target FG, I like to do 20 min. for the first sacch. rest and then 20 min. for the second (~158). I use the same temps for a pilsner, but do 30 min. and 10 min. for the 1st, and 2nd steps respectively

The beer is 34 days old, 10 days in the fermenter and then 24 in the bottle.

 

[maida7]

I've had a beer turn out like that DMS/vegetable character and this one doesn't have it. If i were to liken it too a commercial example, I would say almost "HOUBLON CHOUFFE Dobbelen IPA Tripel", which is what I was aiming for. That or the Captain Lawrence Xtra Gold.

so then what are you complaining about. I've never had the xtra gold but Houblon is not a sweet and cloying beer.

PS DMS does not have to be vegetable. It can just be a sweet corn flavor.

 

[shagington]

so then what are you complaining about. I've never had the xtra gold but Houblon is not a sweet and cloying beer.

PS DMS does not have to be vegetable. It can just be a sweet corn flavor.

As I say almost like, it has those flavors from the hops and the pilsner malt, but is a bit sweet and bigger in mouth feel. But then again as stated earlier it could just be fruity esters that I'm perceiving as a cloying sweetness. Anyone close to the Delaware valley that I could drop a bottle off to to get a second opinion????

I mean the same thing seems to have happened with my Belgo-American Black IPA which under went the same conditions. My friends, who don't brew themselves, but drink a lot of craft beer put it in the sense that the beer seems a bit hefty and they would only drink a bomber bottle of it and not multiple pints. But I think the Black IPA's larger hop character aids in that.

 

[Bob]

I think it's just too young. Ideally, it should have remained in the fermenter for several more weeks. You're tasting green beer.

Age it. Stick the bottles in boxes somewhere and forget about them for a couple of months. Then report back. I think you'll notice a significant difference.

Cheers,

Bob