Would cyclonic filtration work well with trub/hops?

[WortMonger]

I wondered so I started looking. I can't find anything about a cyclonic filter being used in a brewery. It makes sense based on the pool-style versions, but would it work this well for hops and trub out of the boil? What are you guys thoughts on this? Seems it would be easy enough to build doesn't it?

Here's some of sites-of-interest where I got my ideas.
Sand Separator, Multi-Cyclone, Wiki Definition, Cyclone Filtration

If I were recirculating kettle>cyclone>pump>Therminator>kettle, then would I grap all the hop solids? As it chilled down towards pitching, would I collect most of the break? Questions I can't get out of my head.... Would this unit allow my center-of-kettle dip tube to suck up and deliver everything to this filter, leaving me with nothing more than a sticky keggle after it was empty? Maybe I would still need a larger pre-filter screening for the dip tube or something? I wish I could know just how well these things clean wort. So, lets start the brainstorming and the ifs/buts if this is even worth a try!

Thanks guys/gals:rockin:

 

[kladue]

The best route would be to try to scale a centrifuge type seperator down to home brew scale. Possibly something built from a food blender base with a seperator disk that would throw the solids to outside and clean wort to center for a once through path like breweries do.

 

[GreenMonti]

I wish I knew the answer for you. I was unaware that breweries used such a thing. All the breweries I have visited had a depression in the kettle that they whirl pooled the nastiness into.

 

[zymurgy101]

One could ponder if "reverse logic" would work; that is, skim off the heavier particles in a protein skimmer. I use one of these in my coral reef aquarium to remove all the nasties.

http://www.reefdynamics.com/Standard-In-Sump-Protein-Skimmers-s/1.htm

 

[GreenMonti]

One could ponder if "reverse logic" would work; that is, skim off the heavier particles in a protein skimmer. I use one of these in my coral reef aquarium to remove all the nasties.

http://www.reefdynamics.com/Standard-In-Sump-Protein-Skimmers-s/1.htm

I think the real problem would be the fact that a skimmer wouldn't work. C-mon. How many have you had? A protein skimmer???? Really??


There is a HUGE difference.

 

[lamarguy]

If I were recirculating kettle>cyclone>pump>Therminator>kettle, then would I grap all the hop solids?

What you're looking for is a hydrocyclone, which operates differently than an air/gas cyclone due to the nature of hydrodynamics, especially when the density of the wort begins to approach that of the solids (e.g., barleywine).

The primary challenge would be to balance the flow in and out cyclone to get any reasonable efficiency. Worst case - you'll get poor solids separation and lose a large percentage of the wort to the solids outflow.

Also, the cyclone would need to be on the positive pressure side, after the pump.

The "whirlpool and rest" process used at commercial breweries is similar to a hydrocyclone but results in better solids removal with minimal wort loss. The trade off here is efficiency vs time. The hydrocyclone is faster since there is no rest but has a lower overall efficiency than whirlpooling.

 

[kladue]

Here is a link to the LAKOS brand centrifugal seperator for fryer oil http://www.lakos.com/products/CSX.html. I would expect someone like GreenMonti could put one together with a diagram and sizes of the internals. These devices need about 10 PSI pressure drop to get the needed velocity so the march 809's are definatly not going to cut it, you would probably need a MD-4/5 size pump to get flow and head pressure needed. The unit could be fabricated with tri-clover flanges so it could be broken apart for cleaning, and a larger diameter collection bell on the bottom would help with solids collection.

 

[zymurgy101]

I think the real problem would be the fact that a skimmer wouldn't work. C-mon. How many have you had? A protein skimmer???? Really??


There is a HUGE difference.

Sure there is a huge difference between a protein skimmer and cyclonic filtration. I threw it out as an idea to ponder, not that I'm going to be using my Euro-Reef skimmer in my next batch. As far as how many I've had, probably more than you are in age. I've been in the marine hobby since 1983.

 

[WortMonger]

What you're looking for is a hydrocyclone, which operates differently than an air/gas cyclone due to the nature of hydrodynamics, especially when the density of the wort begins to approach that of the solids (e.g., barleywine).

The primary challenge would be to balance the flow in and out cyclone to get any reasonable efficiency. Worst case - you'll get poor solids separation and lose a large percentage of the wort to the solids outflow.

Not a problem, balancing pressure might be a little bit of a bear, but as for collecting solids/waste wort I was thinking of an easily removable container at the dump end. This would collect the trub/break/hop debris and allow me to strain it if I wanted to. I could also just strain the whole hydrocyclone if it was small enough. I feel this will get all the hop debris, which is my major focus, but I also feel it would work well for break once down in temperature enough.

Also, the cyclone would need to be on the positive pressure side, after the pump.

Well then, looks like I would have to go kettle>pump>Therminator>kettle in that case. Should be able to get as much pressure as I should need for the effect inside the cyclone.

The "whirlpool and rest" process used at commercial breweries is similar to a hydrocyclone but results in better solids removal with minimal wort loss. The trade off here is efficiency vs time. The hydrocyclone is faster since there is no rest but has a lower overall efficiency than whirlpooling.

I agree that the simplest is the best and that whirl-pooling does work wonderfully. However, after working in a brewery (and my first home brewery was set up the same way) and seeing how much stuff does get in. I decided a while back to collect 100% from the kettle and filter somehow. Now my keggle has a center pick-up tube, so when I whirlpool and drain I get it all coming out of the kettle. However..., and here's where my current predicament comes in, I am forced to use a hop sack to filter everything too big to go through my Therminator. I hate the hop sack!!! So, I was thinking of using this hydro-cyclone to get me clean wort... and all of it at that. The thing I absolutely hate is wringing out the hop sack. I have just loved clearing the kettle so I want to work from there.

Here is a link to the LAKOS brand centrifugal seperator for fryer oil http://www.lakos.com/products/CSX.html. I would expect someone like GreenMonti could put one together with a diagram and sizes of the internals. These devices need about 10 PSI pressure drop to get the needed velocity so the march 809's are definatly not going to cut it, you would probably need a MD-4/5 size pump to get flow and head pressure needed. The unit could be fabricated with tri-clover flanges so it could be broken apart for cleaning, and a larger diameter collection bell on the bottom would help with solids collection.

I like the idea. I even came up with thoughts to use a centrifugal juicer as a filtering device, but I never used it. Maybe my thoughts should go back to that? It would have been easy to hook tubing up to its out spout and it was sealed up nicely. I could do it all gravity fed and slow my pump down to my collection speed for return. Might take a few cleanings in between clearing a whole kettle, but I bet it would collect everything that went through it with very little waste. I mean it is getting more out of the hops as they spin so.... Lots of ideas coming to me now, and lots more resurfacing. Glad I asked about this.:rockin:

EDIT: Oh... I have no doubt Monti could wrangle something up that made my brain get hard!!! That guy is a maniac with machining/fabricating. Kladue and Monti are like the Dynamic Duo, Wondertwins powers activate!!! Form of a steam generator, form of a automated brewery!

 

[GreenMonti]

Sure there is a huge difference between a protein skimmer and cyclonic filtration. I threw it out as an idea to ponder, not that I'm going to be using my Euro-Reef skimmer in my next batch. As far as how many I've had, probably more than you are in age. I've been in the marine hobby since 1983.

I like the ideas behind a foam fractionator. As you know it is used in many water treatment facilitys. They already have dirty water, its no big deal how they clean things up. Where we have a batch of sterile wort, and we need to keep it that way.

One issue is the weight of the hops. I just can't see whole leaf hops making the trip up a collection neck. You might get by with pellet hops. So maybe we make the collection like a skimmer on a pool. I am not sure how you would control the liquid height though. You would need to skim right at the surface. Another issue I have is the amount of air those things use. You would be taking one serious risk by drawing in all that ambient air, and I'm not sure what one would do with all that foam. If we put a filter on the air intake we build resistance which will take away from our ability to inject it. We also know that the use of a needle wheel is out, so we need to use something like a Becket to introduce the air. Were now faced with the same issue the skimmer manufacturers are faced with, pump vs head pressure and we get to add temperature. This just touches on some of the things I think are important to using this idea for our purposes.

If you own a Euro-reef skimmer then your a big advocate on skimmers. I would have to agree that you have probably had more skimmers then I am young. You've probably built a couple along the way. I also agree that I wouldn't put a Euro-reef skimmer in a batch of wort. I wouldn't place an ASM or a Bubble King in there either.

Cheers.

 

[GreenMonti]

So I have been doing some reading on hydrocyclones. Its very interesting stuff. I wonder if it would be better to use this device with pellet hops instead of whole leaf. By using pellets you could have a smaller hydrocyclone yes? That would give you less waste.

 

[zymurgy101]

Yea, I was just kinda goofing around when I proposed the idea of a protein skimmer. I'm not sure that you would get the same bubble diameter as you would with salt water, so the whole idea is based upon the premise that it would. You're absolutely right that whole hops would not get skimmed effectively; I was thinking of pellet only. Regardless whether dry foam would actually get produced, my concern was whether GOOD things might get pulled out in the process. A nice side effect would be that the wort got nicely aerated along the journey!

So...if you have Green Monti, you should post a pic or two!

You guys obviously have a good knowledge base on the cyclonic approach. It's out of my league, but I'm definitely watching for the details! What batch size(s) would be considered for such a process?

 

[WortMonger]

That is the assumption I am under Monti. I hardly ever use anything but pellets, so my main concern has always been my Therminator. I never worried about anything before with my IC, but I hated cleaning that big-assed thing.

 

[kladue]

How about a ring with spokes or screen wire and coffee filter media on both sides, ring could be tubing with a split tubing clamp around rim to hold filters like barrel lid clamp. Parts should not be hard to make and filter media is cheap and fine enough to stop hot break and pellet hops.
Plan "B" would be an inclined screen filter with wort over top, wort flows through and solids drop off screen to catch container. This is a popular method used for solids seperation and water reclamation. Biggest catch is exposure to air while seperating solids from wort flowing over screen.

 

[CodeRage]

I like the ideas behind a foam fractionator. As you know it is used in many water treatment facilitys. They already have dirty water, its no big deal how they clean things up. Where we have a batch of sterile wort, and we need to keep it that way.

The only time I've seen those used is in some kind of air lift. Cool and simple device.

Foam at a WW plant is not like Star San, FEAR THE FOAM. The wind will blow it a loooong way too .

Kevin, are you talking at something like a bar screen?

 

[GreenMonti]

So...if you have Green Monti, you should post a pic or two!

What batch size(s) would be considered for such a process?

You caught on. I would love too, however I have suffered a drop in my Alk and I didn't catch it in time. I started dosing Kalk about 3 months ago. All my corals are stressed pretty good. I hope that I am on the up stroke of that though. Things seems to be getting their colors back. All but my candy cane. Its slowly going away.

I am sure that it could be scaled to what ever size batches you were doing. Juging by what I have read today on them. They aren't very big to begin with. IIRC I read about one that was 2" diameter and it would handle 15 GPM.

That is the assumption I am under Monti. I hardly ever use anything but pellets, so my main concern has always been my Therminator. I never worried about anything before with my IC, but I hated cleaning that big-assed thing.

I just hose mine off right after I pull it. I don't use any soap or do any scrubbing on my IC.

With your batch sizes, what's the biggest hop bill you've dumped in there? With what I am thinking about that will determine the size of the cone. This way you wouldn't have to worry about dumping it while it was in use. That might not be a very good idea though. That leaves more in there to stay in suspension and find its way to the outlet. HHMMMM.

 

[GreenMonti]

Foam at a WW plant is not like Star San, FEAR THE FOAM. The wind will blow it a loooong way too .

Been there done that have you??:cross:

 

[kladue]

I was thinking of a screen wire screen fed at the top like the bar screens are, but that is a lot of work. Other thought was a vertical screen ring on inside of kettle that would trap hops and trub between ring and inside edge of kettle when whirlpooled. Cleaner wort would be drawn from center with pickup tube while residual wort could drain back to center through spent hops. Pump could be used to generate whirlpool action and force hop residue up and over the inside of the screen ring to get trapped behind screen.

 

[GreenMonti]

Kladue,

That Lakos unit you linked too, they didn't employ the conical shape that is associated with all the others I saw in my reading. With such a small diameter tube, how important would the conical shape be?

Edit; Or the length of the cone? Could a smaller cone be used at the bottom if needed?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Go with the basket, baby. See "Unibrew" in my sig for links to what I've been up to.....

I really think it will work to separate all the hops from the fermenter without causing a drop in hop utilization. The mesh is fine enough to work as well as a hopstopper without risk of clogging.

Would the cyclone filter work? Sure....but i think you're going to be dealing with even more maintenance on top of your therminator. Not only will you need to start cleaning the fiter, but you'll probably still want to backflush the chiller, so the benefits kind of cancel out....

 

[kladue]

The Lakos and Grizwold seperators have tangentinal inlets in the top bell and an inner tube that is 50% the size of the outer tube. Fluid enters top bell and decends along outer tube in a tight spiral throwing out the heavier material to the edge and cleaner liquid to the center pickup tube. The main problem in homebrew scale is pressure needed to get velocity inside bell and outer tube, more pressure drop than the mag pumps can deliver.

 

[WortMonger]

Its sounding like it really would require too much pressure to make these even work a little. Guess I am looking more at the screens for filtration in my future. I like the idea of the removable basket, but I don't think I would need that much filter. I really really wish these would work on a lower pressure.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Its sounding like it really would require too much pressure to make these even work a little. Guess I am looking more at the screens for filtration in my future. I like the idea of the removable basket, but I don't think I would need that much filter. I really really wish these would work on a lower pressure.

It's a shame you don't want to do this with cooled wort. You can get a 115V Shurflo water pump that will get you 45 PSI for $99 from Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Shur...5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

If not, you are right, this will be alot more expensive.

 

[GreenMonti]

The Lakos and Grizwold seperators have tangentinal inlets in the top bell and an inner tube that is 50% the size of the outer tube. Fluid enters top bell and decends along outer tube in a tight spiral throwing out the heavier material to the edge and cleaner liquid to the center pickup tube. The main problem in homebrew scale is pressure needed to get velocity inside bell and outer tube, more pressure drop than the mag pumps can deliver.

My interest in this is peaked. I could see myself using this piece with an IC. I could rid the hops and trube and blast a straight on stream into the IC to cool things down.

I was asking cause, all the ones I found also had a tangent style input. The only difference I saw was the body shape. Even some of the units that look straight, had conical machined insides.

I was hoping maybe we could use a smaller diameter body to get by the flow requirements. There would be a lot less liquid to get moving that way. Tall and skinny. I even thought about an inverted cone shape. That way the sediment would have a place to collect. Like at the base of a tornado.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I always wondered what it would be like if you made an old timey gold miner's "sluice box"...just on a smaller scale.

Make a channel that has screens in it...the particles become lodged as the fluid travels across the screen. Gravity will take care of the rest.....

 

[kladue]

Here is an explanation of the operating principal in a cut away view http://griswoldwatersystems.com/?page_id=241, it does not look that difficult to copy.

 

[WortMonger]

Am I right in thinking that the efficiency of any of these filtering devices goes up, with the fact that I would be recirculating my kettle through it at least 3-4 times minimum during my chilling cycle? Dang that is a long sentence for such a small question! I remember reading about the hydro-cyclone first filtering to ~20 microns first pass, and down to ~5 microns on the second.

I like the idea of kladue's last posted link with Monti's idea of the conical bottom. That really shouldn't be hard to fabricate. Then save the "filters" for your solids removal port, to get the last drop so to speak.