Working with my water profile RESULTS

[beercheer4me]

Just Like everyone else that goes to ALL_grain working with these results can be a nightmare......
But I am going to get to the nuts and bolts LOL

Here is the Water profile I have from Ward Labs
PH 7.8

Na = 5

Potassium K= 1

Calcium Ca = 73

Magnes. Mg = 14

Total Hardness CaCO3 = 241

Nitrate = 6.5

Sulfate SO4-s = 7

Chloride CI = 9

Carbonate CO3 = <1

Bicarbonate HCO3 = 218

Total Alkalinity CaCO3 = 179

Wanting an SRM for a Bells Two Hearted at about 5.5 to 6.0
I did the chart and I get 5 grams of CaSO4,
and CaCi at 5 grams is Needed
Or should I use 50 percent RO and add 2 tbls of 5.2
this is for a 10 Gallon brew at about 12.75 total before boil
Thanks
I used Brisbane Amuteur Beer Brewing Calaulator
Anyone have the profile for the differant styles I know there out here just cant find them ?
Also been studying John Palmers book and BeerSmith !!!!
I do have BeerSmith , and a PH meter......
I think i need to add LATIC Acid
I am so concused in cant spell anymore LOL .....
I have 5.2 charger and, latic acid on hand
Thanks in Advanced

 

[remilard]

If you have a pH meter, forget you ever heard that water and color had anything to do with each other and throw away the 5.2 (or do a small mash with distilled water and 5.2 and use your pH meter to confirm that it doesn't do much of anything let alone what it claims to do and then throw it away).

Your water is very alkaline, I would dilute it heavily or just start with RO.

If you want to make a beer like Two Hearted, try to figure out how Bell's brews it.

 

[mabrungard]

Ah, typical US Midwest water. The water in Terry Hotty is certainly hard and alkaline, just like in Indy.

But, that water is usable for many styles without dilution. Acid addition will be a component in your brewing approach although the level of alkalinity in this water is bordering on the taste threshold for using lactic acid in your sparging water. I'd try it and taste it first. I calculate that you would need about 0.19 teaspoon of 88% lactic per gallon to drop the pH to about 5.7.

Focus less on adding minerals and focus more on reducing alkalinity. Adding 5 grams of gypsum and CaCl is not necessarily the best way to make good brewing water. Even for an American IPA like 2 Hearted.

Most of the other water programs do not help a brewer to impliment this simple concept. Bru'n Water does have that ability and it is a program that you should consider over the other advice your viewing. That calculator is very useful in this case. But even if you don't want to use the calculator, there is a very informative section on Water Knowledge that will help you to understand what you should be doing for your brewing water.

I note that the nitrate concentration in this water is quite high. Since this is a Ward Lab result, the actual concentration is 29 ppm and that is well above the recommended limit of 10 ppm. Its OK for brewing, but not OK for feeding to infants. Just be aware.

And as mentioned above, do yourself a favor and drop the 5.2 Stabilizer in the garbage. You should never use it and after you understand how to properly adjust your brewing water with a program like Bru'n Water, you won't need it.

By the way, those of you that don't have Excel software on your computer, you can download the free set of programs called Open Office. Bru'n Water will operate in that program. Get Bru'n Water at the link in my signature line below.

 

[ajdelange]

No! Don't throw away that 5.2! It turns out it is good for something after all. If you have a precise pH meter that has an abominable specified accuracy - e.g. one Hanna sells for about $35 that has a precision of 0.01 but a listed accuracy (on the website, in catalogs and on the instruction sheet) of 0.5 pH you can calibrate it to 4.00 and 7.00 in buffers and so it will read 4.00 and 7.01 in those buffers but what about at mash pH. Well here's where the 5.2 comes in. It buffers to 5.82 in distilled water and can be used to check your meter mid range (I see you have one).

Now if only they would re-label the stuff 5.8 and change "Supercharge your mash!" to "Check your pH meter!" we could quit grumbling about this stuff.

Just in case there is any confusion caused by this - it's pretty worthless for controlling mash pH.

Actually even if you didn't have pH meter I wouldn't throw the 5.2 away. It's got lots of phosphate in it and could probably be used for fertilizer.

As you are new to this I would recommend following the recommendations of the Primer in the Stickies. It is intended for those who want to make a good all grain beer but who are bewildered by all the complexities of water. It will advise that you dilute appreciably with RO which will knock down the alkalinity (and the nitrate), add some calcium chloride and maybe sulfate and use sauermalz or lactic acid to control mash pH. This is the most important part. You are way out in front of most in that you have a pH meter. Calibrate it, check it in 5.2 and then use it to see if you have added enough sauermalz (easier to handle and measure IMO) or lactic acid to get mash pH around 5.4. That doesn't mean that you should forget learning about water and the spreadsheets are a good tool for that up to a point (beyond which you may never have to go and should you want to there are spreadsheets that will take you there).

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

It's got lots of phosphate in it and could probably be used for fertilizer.

The ultimate in product endorsement: "Could be used as fertilizer."

Just curious though; once you calibrate with 7.01/4.01 and get the zero and slope it seems points in-between 'should' be right (if this is all linear). What could cause an error in the middle? Does something go 'non-linear'? The probe itself?

 

[ajdelange]

Well that's the big mystery. What could you do to screw up a measurement that badly? I just don't know. The first thought is noise in the electronics. Half a pH is 29 mV. Where can one buy a transistor that noisy? And if noise were responsible the reading would not be stable enough to permit calibration to 0.01 pH (the guy that pointed this thing out to me said he can calibrate and the readings are stable in the buffer). Scratch quantizing noise is the A/D for the same reason and I don't think you can buy A/D's that are that non linear either. The good Dr. Nernst protects us from nonlinearity of that magnitude in the electrode and as the spec is at 20 °C neither a wild isoelectric pH nor a bad temperature probe could be responsible (no ATC in this meter). I really think it's a misprint that just got propagated and assume they mean 0.05. The pHep meters are specced to that level. I would think that anyone with one of those might like to check it out mid range (i.e. half way between the buffers).

 

[samc]

How come Five Star sells a product that is so hated here and yet we all seem to love StarSan? Has anyone ever put it to them that it doesn't work very well? I'm not qualified to argue the point, or I would send them an email about it.

 

[ajdelange]

There is some mystery here too. These guys have, other than 5.2, good products and enjoy an excellent reputation. They have to know this stuff is no good but continue to sell it. It seems that no one had ever really checked it out and I used to say with tongue in cheek that it is great for brewers who don't own pH meters because they swear by it whereas those who do have pH meters wind up using it for fertilizer (guess I'll go with that one).

Someone on this forum or another reported that he did call them and demand an explanation and was told that it was never intended to set mash pH but only prevent it from going too low in acidic mashes. I would expect it to do that but the label says "...LOCK IN you mash water at a pH of 5.2" If the word gets spread and the sales go down then they'll get the message. If people continue to buy the stuff on blind faith and the sales don't go down they aren't going to care much about an e-mail or phone call or 2 - unless they have much higher ethical standards than most businessmen today seem to have.

 

[vballdrummer]

+1 - I bought some when it first came out -- and there is still only one tablespoon missing from the container.

@ajdelange -- quick, make another post your currently sitting at 666

 

[beercheer4me]

Thanks for the info,,, I have brew twice on my brew stand, the first one was a 1554 with no 5.2 and the 2nd brew was a fat tire,,, with 5.2, dummy me took the PH Reading in the HLT in stead of the mash , THE BLACK ALE 1554 was or had a little dry finish at the end, it was good thought, didnt last long, the fat tire differant story, bottle 5 gallons, the other 5 gallons pored it in the white rock, I thought it sucked, got to thinking about it, I added 3-tbs because the PH didn't drop when taking the
Reading,, dah, brain fart, wondering if this had anything to do with the 5.2 charge in the fat tire brew,
So basically I need to start with RO AND BUILT UP A WATER PROFILE from there.......on all styles but say porters on up to heavy darks like guinness.
Thanks guys for the help, I will take a look at the bru n water ,
Back to the bells two hearted using RO what would you do?
So I can order what I need to get the water close,,,,, was going to use 80 %,,RO and 20 % (well water)
I think that it is going to take a good water profile in allgrain to make good beer, then yeast,,,, lol
Thanks

 

[beercheer4me]

Primer in the Stickies. It is intended for those who want to make a good all grain beer but who are bewildered by all the complexities of water. It will advise that you dilute appreciably with RO which will knock down the alkalinity (and the nitrate), add some calcium chloride and maybe sulfate and use sauermalz

Back again What is Primer in the Stickies ,,I can get all the R.O. and soft water I want at work , What is Sauermalz ?

 

[beercheer4me]

It really seems like 5.2 has a good marketing because I have called serveral Brew shops and they realy push it

 

[ajdelange]

Back again What is Primer in the Stickies

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

What is Sauermalz ?

It is barley malt which has either been steeped and innoculated with lactic acid bacteria or sprayed with lactic acid prepared by innoculating wort with lactic acid bacteria and then, in either case, dried. It is sometimes called "acidulated malt".

 

[beercheer4me]

Mr. Addelange,
Thanks for all the advise, been reading John Palmer book over and over , Follow the instructions on the nomograph for the High Bicarb and alkinity and Wow off the charts of sorts,, So I am thinking of rasing the So4 with a little of soft water about 2 gallons for the hops , and then use 2 gallons of well water for some minerals and the rest of R.O. to round it out at about 15 to 16 gallons total gallons for a 10 gallons brew for the TWO hearted Bells and then check PH and the mash , how does that sound to you ?
I was reading Palmers book and guess who 's name i saw
Thanks again
I have access to RO,DI,Soft, and of couse my Guiness Well water LOL
Do you think that a DARK grain bill would work with the above testing.
with no addations
Thanks again

 

[ajdelange]

I strongly caution people against using the Palmer color nomograph because it leads them to think they need to dump unbelievable amounts of chalk into the water/mash for any brew that is much darker than 20 SRM. The same goes for the original spreadsheets. Many of these and the later ones now still consider color but have toned down the alkali recommendations appreciably.

For starting out I recommend what's in the Primer. Water chemistry is bewildering. If you try to be too sophisticated at the start you will probably not succeed. The Primer's recommendations will get you good beer. Many have reported that they have improved significantly improved their beers by following them.

As other poster's have noted, your water is very alkaline. That alkalinity will have to be dealt with for most beers and the easiest was to do that is to dilute especially as you have RO/DI water available. You will want to dilute 9:1 (RO:well) for most applications with supplementation with calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate. Acid will be required to get the pH into the proper range.

The exception would be dark beers where the acid from the dark malt supplies the required acid. Here, as in other cases, you should be guided by what your pH meter tells you. If the pH comes out too low then add some calcium carbonate - a bit at a time- to the mash until the pH is higher than 5.2 - 5.3. You very well may not have to do this. In fact there is a good chance your pH will be higher than you would like.

Again, be guided by the meter. Consider what the Primer tells you and what any spreadsheet you use tells you and compare that to what the pH meter tells you - but follow the meter. The Primer contains starting out guidelines and the spreadsheets contain models (and different ones). The pH meter tells you what's happening in your mash tun.