WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[nofootbreak]

I bottle conditioned about 1/4 of my berliner weisse with this yeast and I really dont like the way this strain comes through. Just far too much over ripe stone fruit.

 

[ryanhope]

I bottle conditioned about 1/4 of my berliner weisse with this yeast and I really dont like the way this strain comes through. Just far too much over ripe stone fruit.

A friend of mine also fermented a berliner with WLP644 and it smells like parmesan cheese. Pretty nasty but that might change with time.

 

[Tiroux]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

 

[kaips1]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

I never saw airlock activity with my first trois batch but it fermented just fine.

 

[lawbadger]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

I pitched two vials directly into a 1.052 all-Brett IPA and ended up having a blow off a day and a half into fermentation. I wonder if aeration or your fermentation temps have something to do with the lag / lack of visible fermentation. But like other folks have mentioned, Brett Trois will chew through anything even if there's no visible signs of fermentation.

 

[JLem]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

Given you made a starter I would be surprised if you do not have any fermentation...though lack of airlock activity is not a reliable indicator of a lack of fermentation - have you taken a look at the beer to see if you have other physical evidence? If you are really worried, take a gravity reading and see if it has decreased.

What temp is the beer at? You mentioned that it got cold overnight, so I wonder if it is too cold???

 

[Tiroux]

Given you made a starter I would be surprised if you do not have any fermentation...though lack of airlock activity is not a reliable indicator of a lack of fermentation - have you taken a look at the beer to see if you have other physical evidence? If you are really worried, take a gravity reading and see if it has decreased.

What temp is the beer at? You mentioned that it got cold overnight, so I wonder if it is too cold???

It is a carboy.. so I see the beer, and the surface is pretty still, no krausen, just rare bubble boats. The temp when down to 72. Now i went back up to 78. The airlocks are bubbling.. but I guess it is just the head space air that is expanding. I don't see why it would not ferment.. I had like 200-250ml of yeast slurry after I decanted the starter, which had krausen at the second step.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

It is a carboy.. so I see the beer, and the surface is pretty still, no krausen, just rare bubble boats. The temp when down to 72. Now i went back up to 78. The airlocks are bubbling.. but I guess it is just the head space air that is expanding. I don't see why it would not ferment.. I had like 200-250ml of yeast slurry after I decanted the starter, which had krausen at the second step.

Don't worry, mine have taken about 48 hrs and from what I've followed you haven't done anything wrong. Once it gets going I've had an aggressive fermentation with plenty of airlock activity and good attenuation.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

A friend of mine also fermented a berliner with WLP644 and it smells like parmesan cheese. Pretty nasty but that might change with time.

Interesting. About as close as I can come is a hint of butterscotch (ethyl lactate?) in the background. Looking at this chart in Wild Brews, most of the things referred to as "cheesy" are acids. I wonder if the cheesy element doesn't come from the sour mash as opposed to the brett. Good news is it looks like esterification of these cheesy acids results in fruity characteristics, so hopefully with time it'll come around.

 

[ryanhope]

Interesting. About as close as I can come is a hint of butterscotch (ethyl lactate?) in the background. Looking at this chart in Wild Brews, most of the things referred to as "cheesy" are acids. I wonder if the cheesy element doesn't come from the sour mash as opposed to the brett. Good news is it looks like esterification of these cheesy acids results in fruity characteristics, so hopefully with time it'll come around.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/isovaleric-acid/

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/isovaleric-acid/

I see both Isovaleric and Isobutyric acids listed as being cheesy, though none specifically listed as Parmesan. Hard to say...

 

[cjalderman]

Alright, round two. Tell me what y'all think for this.
Brett Trois IPA - 3.0 gal
OG: 1.061
IBU: 57.0
SRM: 5.1
75% efficiency

4 lbs 2-row 60.4%
2 lbs White Wheat 30.2%
8.0 oz Golden Naked Oats 7.5%
4.0 oz Acidulated Malt 1.9%

8g Columbus (14.0%) FWH 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) 10 min
10g Motueka (6.7%) 5 min
10g Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) 5 min
10g Pacific Jade 5 min
10g Motueka 0 min
10g Nelson Sauvin 0 min
8.35g each of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade dry hop

 

[JLem]

Alright, round two. Tell me what y'all think for this.
Brett Trois IPA - 3.0 gal
OG: 1.061
IBU: 57.0
SRM: 5.1
75% efficiency

4 lbs 2-row 60.4%
2 lbs White Wheat 30.2%
8.0 oz Golden Naked Oats 7.5%
4.0 oz Acidulated Malt 1.9%

8g Columbus (14.0%) FWH 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) 10 min
10g Motueka (6.7%) 5 min
10g Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) 5 min
10g Pacific Jade 5 min
10g Motueka 0 min
10g Nelson Sauvin 0 min
8.35g each of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade dry hop

Looks excellent to me. Can't think of anything I'd change. I think you'll love the combination of this yeast an those hops. What's also cool about this yeast is that you'll probably have a tasty/interesting beer even after the hops drop out. You should put a few bottles aside and see how it ages - I bet it will age a lot better than most IPAs.

 

[Brulosopher]

My first starter of 644 has been on a stir plate for the last 5 days, I just turned the stir plate off and plan to let it sit at 74F until I pitch on Thursday. How does this sound?

Here's my plan and recipe for Thursday's brew day... I'll take all the help I can get!

Batch Size: 10 gallons split into 2 x 5 gallons Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Expected OG: 1.055
Expected FG: 1.005 (or less)
SRM: 5
IBU: 32

GRAIN BILL
10.50 lbs German Pilsner Malt
4.50 lbs White Wheat Malt
3.00 lbs Munich Malt - 10L
1.50 lbs Acidulated Malt
1.50 lbs Flaked Oats

HOP SCHEDULE
20 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 55 min
20 grams EKG [7.80%] @ 25 min
24 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 10 min
30 grams Cascade [12.90%] @ 5 min

YEASTS
WLP644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois Yeast for half
Wyeast Roeselare Blend for half

PROCESS
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Split wort into two 6 gallon carboys and pitch both yeasts (1.5 L of Brett Trois starter, smack-pack of Roeselare) at 68˚; allow to ferment at this temp for 5-7 days then move to 74˚ sour closet for batch conditioning and aging

**For the Brett Trois Blonde: Move back to ferm chamber after 3 weeks and cold crash to 33˚ for 3 days, keg and lager a bit while carbonating, then serve. Grain to glass in 5-6 weeks.

**For the Roeselare Blonde: Keep in sour closet for 11+ months or until it develops appropriate sourness; bottle condition.

 

[ryanhope]

I see both Isovaleric and Isobutyric acids listed as being cheesy, though none specifically listed as Parmesan. Hard to say...

Cheesy is very generic, I smelled a very specific type of cheese You might smell something else for your particular batch.

 

[ryanhope]

My first starter of 644 has been on a stir plate for the last 5 days, I just turned the stir plate off and plan to let it sit at 74F until I pitch on Thursday. How does this sound?

Here's my plan and recipe for Thursday's brew day... I'll take all the help I can get!

Batch Size: 10 gallons split into 2 x 5 gallons Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Expected OG: 1.055
Expected FG: 1.005 (or less)
SRM: 5
IBU: 32

GRAIN BILL
10.50 lbs German Pilsner Malt
4.50 lbs White Wheat Malt
3.00 lbs Munich Malt - 10L
1.50 lbs Acidulated Malt
1.50 lbs Flaked Oats

HOP SCHEDULE
20 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 55 min
20 grams EKG [7.80%] @ 25 min
24 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 10 min
30 grams Cascade [12.90%] @ 5 min

YEASTS
WLP644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois Yeast for half
Wyeast Roeselare Blend for half

PROCESS
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Split wort into two 6 gallon carboys and pitch both yeasts (1.5 L of Brett Trois starter, smack-pack of Roeselare) at 68˚; allow to ferment at this temp for 5-7 days then move to 74˚ sour closet for batch conditioning and aging

**For the Brett Trois Blonde: Move back to ferm chamber after 3 weeks and cold crash to 33˚ for 3 days, keg and lager a bit while carbonating, then serve. Grain to glass in 5-6 weeks.

**For the Roeselare Blonde: Keep in sour closet for 11+ months or until it develops appropriate sourness; bottle condition.

I would ditch the oats, that might also be too much wheat. This is tough with the split batch. The bugs in the Roeselare batch will definitely eat though everything over the 11+ months but I think you are gonna have too much mouth feel in your blond if you are going to be drinking it within 2 months.

 

[Brulosopher]

I would ditch the oats, that might also be too much wheat. This is tough with the split batch. The bugs in the Roeselare batch will definitely eat though everything over the 11+ months but I think you are gonna have too much mouth feel in your blond if you are going to be drinking it within 2 months.

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

 

[ryanhope]

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

Well IPAs are easy with this yeast, especially with all those citrus and tropical fruit hops. Blond ales are much different.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

I made a brett trois IPA that is very similar: 25% white wheat malt, 5% Munich, 5% golden naked oats. Little Sumpin is a great example of a wheat IPA (~50% wheat) if you're not sure. I think you'll find the brett and hops will take over regardless.

 

[Brulosopher]

Well IPAs are easy with this yeast, especially with all those citrus and tropical fruit hops. Blond ales are much different.

Care to elaborate? I figured since Blonded are lower OG, it'd require more body building malts.

 

[sweetcell]

Alright, round two. Tell me what y'all think for this.
Brett Trois IPA - 3.0 gal
OG: 1.061
IBU: 57.0
SRM: 5.1
75% efficiency

4 lbs 2-row 60.4%
2 lbs White Wheat 30.2%
8.0 oz Golden Naked Oats 7.5%
4.0 oz Acidulated Malt 1.9%

8g Columbus (14.0%) FWH 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) 10 min
10g Motueka (6.7%) 5 min
10g Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) 5 min
10g Pacific Jade 5 min
10g Motueka 0 min
10g Nelson Sauvin 0 min
8.35g each of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade dry hop

i haven't brweed with this yeast so i might be wrong here, but seems like this IPA could use more late hops. i realize it's a 3 gallon batch, but i'd increase those 10g additions to 15g. 1.1 oz dry hop seems low. for me, an IPA needs 0.5 oz/gal (14g/gal) at the very least, with 1 oz/gal (28g/gal) being a better number.

but maybe the Trois reduces the need for late hopping?

that, and i possibly like hops too much

 

[cjalderman]

i haven't brweed with this yeast so i might be wrong here, but seems like this IPA could use more late hops. i realize it's a 3 gallon batch, but i'd increase those 10g additions to 15g. 1.1 oz dry hop seems low. for me, an IPA needs 0.5 oz/gal (14g/gal) at the very least, with 1 oz/gal (28g/gal) being a better number.

but maybe the Trois reduces the need for late hopping?

that, and i possibly like hops too much

Added more hops and brewed this past Saturday. I decided to start keeping a blog as an online journal for my own brewing adventures, so here's a link to a post with some brew day picture for those interested.
Brett Trois IPA Brew Day

I went out and bought another ounce of NZ Green Bullet to use in this brew and updated the hopping schedule:

8.35g NZ Green Bullet (12.5%) FWH - Boil 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) - Boil 10 min
10g each: Motueka (6.7%), Pacific Jade, and Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) - Boil 5 min
10g each: Motueka, NZ Green Bullet, and Nelson Sauvin - Boil 0 min
8.35g each: Motueka, Pacific Jade, Nelson Sauvin, and 10g NZ Green Bullet - Dry Hop 5 days

This gives me 60g (2.12 oz) of hops thrown in for the final 5 min of boil and 35.05g (1.24 oz) of hops for dry hopping (@0.41 oz/gal). I think this looks good, right?

 

[sweetcell]

This gives me 60g (2.12 oz) of hops thrown in for the final 5 min of boil and 35.05g (1.24 oz) of hops for dry hopping (@0.41 oz/gal). I think this looks good, right?

now you're talkin' :rockin:

do report back and let us know how it turns out!

 

[Brulosopher]

I would ditch the oats, that might also be too much wheat. This is tough with the split batch. The bugs in the Roeselare batch will definitely eat though everything over the 11+ months but I think you are gonna have too much mouth feel in your blond if you are going to be drinking it within 2 months.

Alright, so here's what I came up with considering your advice, please let me know what you think about the changes:

Brett Trois Blonde Ale (5.25 gallon batch size)

GRIST
13 lbs 4 oz German Pils (70%)
2 lbs 12 oz Munich - 10L (15%)
1 lbs 5 oz Acidulated Malt (7%)
15 oz White Wheat Malt (5%)
9 oz CaraPils (3%)

This will get me an OG of 1.049. Hop schedule stayed the same.

Cheers!

 

[kaips1]

Alright, so here's what I came up with considering your advice, please let me know what you think about the changes:

Brett Trois Blonde Ale (5.25 gallon batch size)

GRIST
13 lbs 4 oz German Pils (70%)
2 lbs 12 oz Munich - 10L (15%)
1 lbs 5 oz Acidulated Malt (7%)
15 oz White Wheat Malt (5%)
9 oz CaraPils (3%)

This will get me an OG of 1.049. Hop schedule stayed the same.

Cheers!

If it were me I'd lower the acid malt and increase the wheat malt. The acid malt helps the Brett attenuate and that'll thin your body.

 

[Brulosopher]

If it were me I'd lower the acid malt and increase the wheat malt. The acid malt helps the Brett attenuate and that'll thin your body.

Thanks! I was hoping to get a subtle tartness from the higher acid malt %, hence the prior inclusion of oats. Argh, this is getting confusing

 

[kaips1]

Thanks! I was hoping to get a subtle tartness from the higher acid malt %, hence the prior inclusion of oats. Argh, this is getting confusing

Using an aerated starter of Brett trois and a couple months in the bottle and you should see some tartness, not a lot but its there

 

[ryanhope]

Care to elaborate? I figured since Blonded are lower OG, it'd require more body building malts.

This yeast in the absence of phenols from a sacch yeast produces lots of tropical fruit notes which work really well with the citrus and tropical fruit flavors in modern hops. Thats why I say IPAs are easy with this yeast. Depending on how bitter the beer is you will need a decent malt back bone.

Now for a blonde ale you are not going to have that much bitterness so you dont need such a big malt background. You do need to have an idea when you want to drink the beer and make sure you have enough sugars for the brett to eat so that you can hit your target fg when the beer is ready. I would personally drink the blonde young because the little hops will fade quick. I also think the blonde would do well on the dryer sides of things.

 

[ryanhope]

If it were me I'd lower the acid malt and increase the wheat malt. The acid malt helps the Brett attenuate and that'll thin your body.

I never heard that about pH and attenuation with brett. However, something about the lower pH or the lactic acid from the acid malt does help the brett produce more tropical fruit notes.

 

[kaips1]

I never heard that about pH and attenuation with brett. However, something about the lower pH or the lactic acid from the acid malt does help the brett produce more tropical fruit notes.

It's in chad yacabsons dissertation on Brett, the presence of lactic acid helps Brett finish out completely, kinda like the secondary transfer can.

 

[Brulosopher]

It's in chad yacabsons dissertation on Brett, the presence of lactic acid helps Brett finish out completely, kinda like the secondary transfer can.

Okay... so if I'm keeping the Acid malt and my OG is 1.049ish, perhaps it would be prudent to include maybe 8 oz flaked oats just for body/mouthfeel purposes?

Seriously, this thread is teaching me a lot. By the time I get to brewing on Friday, I'm sure I'll have a better idea of how this yeast will impact the beer I'm making. Cheers!

 

[kaips1]

Okay... so if I'm keeping the Acid malt and my OG is 1.049ish, perhaps it would be prudent to include maybe 8 oz flaked oats just for body/mouthfeel purposes?

Seriously, this thread is teaching me a lot. By the time I get to brewing on Friday, I'm sure I'll have a better idea of how this yeast will impact the beer I'm making. Cheers!

Google the brettanomyces project and it'll take you to the site chad was runnin while doing his masters. It contains his dissertation which should give you the best advice on building a recipe. Go to embracethefunk.com and click for videos and watch his presentation he did in TN, its insanely insightful.

 

[cdburg]

From what I've seen from everyone else, the Brett Trois has behaved like a "normal" beer yeast. I just finished my second beer with it, and both have ended up with a 1.001 FG. (1.061 to 1.001 in 10 days starting at 64 F and ramping up to 72 F).

How is everyone getting the Trois to stop? Any ideas why it isn't in my case?

 

[ryanhope]

From what I've seen from everyone else, the Brett Trois has behaved like a "normal" beer yeast. I just finished my second beer with it, and both have ended up with a 1.001 FG. (1.061 to 1.001 in 10 days starting at 64 F and ramping up to 72 F).

How is everyone getting the Trois to stop? Any ideas why it isn't in my case?

I've never hit that low of a FG with a 100% brett ferments. Maybe it is because I use torrified wheat instead of flaked wheat. I also keg not bottle so maybe if I waited longer my FG would go a little lower. Mine usually end up around 1.010

 

[Coff]

Are there any online retailers selling this atm? I kept my culture going for a while but need a new pitch. I could culture from my remaining bottles but wouldn't mind starting over again.

Edit: Nevermind, found it at Rebel Brewer.

 

[lacticacid]

Are there any online retailers selling this atm? I kept my culture going for a while but need a new pitch. I could culture from my remaining bottles but wouldn't mind starting over again.

Edit: Nevermind, found it at Rebel Brewer.

Keystone in Montgomeryville had 4 vials last weekend if you wanted so place sort of local.

 

[Coff]

Keystone in Montgomeryville had 4 vials last weekend if you wanted so place sort of local.

Awesome, thanks for the tip. My brother lives around the block, I'll have him pick me up a vial.

 

[Brulosopher]

I brewed the split-batch Blonde ale this morning, pitching WLP644 in half and Roeselare inthe other. Here's the grain bill I settled on:

13 lbs German Pils
2 lbs Munich - 10L
1 lb 8 oz Flaked Oats
1 lb 8 oz White Wheat Malt
1 lb 6 oz Acidulated Malt (added at end of mash)

My hops schedule looked like this:

14 g CTZ @ 75 (12.3 IBU)
20 g EKG @ 25
24 g CTZ @ 10
30 g Centennial @ 5

I pitched both yeasts at 67F. I plan to let the 644 go for 7-8 weeks before kegging, while the Roeselare will go for a year before bottling.

We'll see!

 

[meltroha]

I have 1 long excruciating week left till I bottle my Belgian blonde with trois, I can't take it anymore.

 

[kaips1]

I have 1 long excruciating week left till I bottle my Belgian blonde with trois, I can't take it anymore.

Just wait till its conditioning time, that wait will kill you too