WLP051 possible failure

[ShowPonyBrewing]

We brewed a Citra IPA yesterday and pitched 2 pure pitch packs of WLP051 America Ale V and so far nothing and going on about 17 hrs later. This happened last time when I used a White Lab yeast, but I have success using all brands of yeast I’ve used. Any suggestions on what to do and how to salvage this? Thank you.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP051 is the White Labs version of BRY-97 which is a notoriously slow starter - just give it time.

RDWHAHB.

 

[ShowPonyBrewing]

Ok. The kit was from N Brewer and recommended OG of 50, my actual OG was 44 and as of now it’s at 38.

 

[suregork]

WLP051 is the White Labs version of BRY-97 which is a notoriously slow starter - just give it time.

RDWHAHB.

Phil just pointed out that White Labs have released a new 2018 catalogue, and in it they reveal WLP051 is actually S. pastorianus! Very interesting, but not very surprising (with lager yeasts revealed as ale yeasts). Will have to check if it is Saaz or Frohberg.

Sorry for going off topic!

 

[ShowPonyBrewing]

So what does that mean exactly

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Ooh that's interesting!

@ShowPonyBrewing - don't worry too much, we're just yeast-geeking. The significance is that ale yeasts are descended from a single species of yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae ("the sugar fungus from beer") whereas there are two groups of lager yeasts (Saaz and Frohberg), both of which are hybrids between S. cerevisiae and a cold-tolerant yeast called Saccharomyces eubayanus. It's all a bit up in the air at the moment how to classify these things, but the simplest way is to say that all the ale yeasts are S. cerevisiae and both kinds of lager hybrid are called Saccharomyces pastorianus ("Pasteur's sugar fungus").

So WLP051 is apparently a lager hybrid rather than an ale yeast. That's interesting because it's traditionally been linked to Anchor Liberty Ale, whose yeast is meant to be BRY-97 which like BRY-96 (which became Sierra Nevada's Chico strain which begat US-05/WLP001/1056) originally came from Ballantine's in Newark, New Jersey. Ballantine's had two breweries, one making ale and one "beer" (ie lager) and it had been assumed that the two yeasts represented the two different breweries. But previously the limited genetic evidence had led us to think that they were both descendants of the same original yeast, which had been an ale yeast. But it makes a lot more sense for one of them to be a "true" lager yeast.

 

[ShowPonyBrewing]

That’s interesting for sure. I bumped my temp from 64 up to 68 so hopefully it’ll help. Any more info is greatly appreciated. Also I recently used Imperial Yeast and it’s the best by far that I’ve used. No more White Labs for sure.

 

[WildernessBrewing]

That’s interesting for sure. I bumped my temp from 64 up to 68 so hopefully it’ll help. Any more info is greatly appreciated. Also I recently used Imperial Yeast and it’s the best by far that I’ve used. No more White Labs for sure.

How did your Citra IPA turn out? Just recently cold crashed a starter of WLP051 for an upcoming Cascade/Amarillo Pale that I'm brewing this week, and I'm curious how yours ended up.

Edit: I will say that I had the starter at around 68-70 the whole time and it produced a nice, clean starter with a slightly fruity nose.

 

[SanPancho]

So the Anchor Ale yeast is actually a lager hybrid, but thats not the steam/common strain from anchor, is it?

I was told steam/common has always been referred to as a lager yeast, not a low temp ale like kolsch. Or is that wrong now too?

 

[couchsending]

If wlp051 is the same as Bry-97, 1272, Imperial Independent and it's a lager yeast that is really weird cause 1272 at least doesn't work very well at low temps and prefers temps around 68. If it was a lager yeast you'd think like 1056 it would work well all the way down to 55??

 

[WildernessBrewing]

So the Anchor Ale yeast is actually a lager hybrid, but thats not the steam/common strain from anchor, is it?

I was told steam/common has always been referred to as a lager yeast, not a low temp ale like kolsch. Or is that wrong now too?

From White Labs site:

"Recent sequencing studies show that WLP051 belongs to Saccharomyces pastorianus species, the same hybrid species as most lager strains. However, this strain has been used to make ales for decades and was previously categorized as belonging to Saccharomyces cerevisiae."

 

[SanPancho]

wait- im a bit confused here going by the white labs numbers. maybe i wasnt clear on first part of question. 051 is "cali ale V" and that is supposed to be the anchor liberty strain, as reported above, correct?

so the "liberty ale" yeast is actually pastorianus, and do we know if anything has come up recently with the common/steam yeast, wlp810? no changes there?

 

[dmtaylor]

yesterday and pitched 2 pure pitch packs of WLP051 America Ale V and so far nothing and going on about 17 hrs later.

Well, WLP051 is actually a lager yeast, so.....

so the "liberty ale" yeast is actually pastorianus, and do we know if anything has come up recently with the common/steam yeast, wlp810? no changes there?

I'm not aware of any change in status of WLP810. The recent research did not spell that one out. Only WLP051. Presumably, WLP810 might be related to WLP051... and it might not. In any case, whichever species it is, WLP810 does perform well at warm temps.

 

[kh54s10]

It has been around for making ales for a long time. I have never used it, but if it works, who really cares which strain it is.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If wlp051 is the same as Bry-97, 1272, Imperial Independent and it's a lager yeast that is really weird cause 1272 at least doesn't work very well at low temps and prefers temps around 68. If it was a lager yeast you'd think like 1056 it would work well all the way down to 55??

Probably - but yeast have a funny way of not knowing the rules.

However, I think there has to be some doubt on whether those yeasts are all the "same" (or at least very close cousins), it would be an easy thing to test their DNA for. It would be a reasonable guess that WLP051 is quite closely related to WLP810, but we don't know for certain at this time.

 

[dmtaylor]

If wlp051 is the same as Bry-97, 1272, Imperial Independent and it's a lager yeast that is really weird cause 1272 at least doesn't work very well at low temps and prefers temps around 68. If it was a lager yeast you'd think like 1056 it would work well all the way down to 55??

there has to be some doubt on whether those yeasts are all the "same" (or at least very close cousins), it would be an easy thing to test their DNA for. It would be a reasonable guess that WLP051 is quite closely related to WLP810, but we don't know for certain at this time.

My latest hypotheses based on many hours review of recent genetic research papers and related podcasts:

WLP051 and 1272 are in fact NOT equivalent. WLP051 is BRY-97. 1272 is more closely related to WLP008 (Sam Adams Ale) & WLP019 (Cal Ale IV).

Also I hypothesize that WLP810 *might* actually be sister to WLP001! But that just seems crazy, even to me! I'm constantly fighting my own brain on this stuff.

Don't ask me for bases because even I don't remember... I came up with this stuff when it was fresh in my mind, jotted it all down... you should see my friggin cat scratchy notes! Trying to apply fallible human intuition to all the results. You can test my hypotheses, or tell me I'm full of crap. I don't care. Just throwing it out there for all to see.

Cheers all.

 

[corax]

It has been around for making ales for a long time. I have never used it, but if it works, who really cares which strain it is.

Well I do, for one. That's the beauty of hobbies: we all get to be interested in what we're interested in, and ignore what we're not.

 

[kh54s10]

I care what the yeast does for my beer. I can look up what strain if I want to, but I wouldn't care if it was Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Saccharomyces pastorianus, or even Saccharomyces disgustingus as long as it produced the results I am looking for.

 

[ba-brewer]

My latest hypotheses based on many hours review of recent genetic research papers and related podcasts:

WLP051 and 1272 are in fact NOT equivalent. WLP051 is BRY-97. 1272 is more closely related to WLP008 (Sam Adams Ale) & WLP019 (Cal Ale IV).


Cheers all.

I have used BRY-97 a few time and it has not produced a sulfur smell during fermentation. WLP051 is known to generate sulfur during fermentation, it was so bad for me I only used it once.

 

[dmtaylor]

I have used BRY-97 a few time and it has not produced a sulfur smell during fermentation. WLP051 is known to generate sulfur during fermentation, it was so bad for me I only used it once.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Important to mention -- I was referring to BRY-97 as the original source, which IIRC was Ballantine or other old brewery. I was not talking about the dried form. Intriguingly, I have a strong hunch that the dried form might actually be 1272 but not WLP051. The confusion is so deep, this has been going on for 50-some long years, that it will require a focused DNA test of all 3 of these (and hopefully many others again too) to really know what's what.

 

[Lefou]

I care what the yeast does for my beer. I can look up what strain if I want to, but I wouldn't care if it was Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Saccharomyces pastorianus, or even Saccharomyces disgustingus as long as it produced the results I am looking for.

Boooo! You're such a square.
Seems to me it would be a great choice for steam beer in particular. Being partial to liquids instead of dry yeasts for specialty beers, I'd definitely consider using 051 if my LBHS provided it - but they don't. It's always good to know of possible replacements, but "nerding out" can be fun, especially for quasi-engineering types the hobby seems to attract.