Wiring Diagram Double Check

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HarpuaScorpio

HarpuaScorpio

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I based this mostly off of one of P-J's popular diagrams but with ideas and input from various other places on this forum. I wouldn't mind some feedback and a double check on the diagram, if you don't mind.

Here's the goals of this system:
-Indoor 240V 30A recirculating eBIAB w/ 5500W Stainless Element from Bobby
-Switching power to the element between PID (SYL-2352) for mashing and DSPR1 for ease and precision of boil control. LED to show when there is power hitting the element.
-Key switch main power with E-Stop breaking the two hot lines going in to the panel (not tripping the GFI Breaker like in P-J's designs). LED to show panel is powered on.
-The pump switch (Auber SW1) is illuminated when the pump is running, eliminating a stand alone LED.

Here's the diagram:

d1Ur7pg.jpg


I also have a question about the necessity of the contactor. I understand that it physically breaks the connection, ensuring that no power is hitting the element but I've also read that the DSPR1 can fire the element very quickly, almost strobe-like. Wouldn't that be harmful to the contactor? I've drawn up another diagram that basically eliminates the contactor and connects the SSR directly to the element and LED.

Thanks in advance.
 
my comments:

- make sure the contacts on your key switch and e-stop are rated for the full load current. most 'regular' switches are not rated this high.
- the 2 amp fuse on the pump may be a source of blowing, depending on the pump size. you don't really need it.
- the contactor is there is a means of isolation for the ssr. ssr's tend to fail in the closed position so it is nice to have that means of complete isolation. the dspr1 fires the ssr, not the contactor. the contactor only opens/closes when main power is removed/applied to the panel.
 
HarpuaScorpio said:
I based this mostly off of one of P-J's popular diagrams but with ideas and input from various other places on this forum. I wouldn't mind some feedback and a double check on the diagram, if you don't mind.

Here's the goals of this system:
-Indoor 240V 30A recirculating eBIAB w/ 5500W Stainless Element from Bobby
-Switching power to the element between PID (SYL-2352) for mashing and DSPR1 for ease and precision of boil control. LED to show when there is power hitting the element.
-Key switch main power with E-Stop breaking the two hot lines going in to the panel (not tripping the GFI Breaker like in P-J's designs). LED to show panel is powered on.
-The pump switch (Auber SW1) is illuminated when the pump is running, eliminating a stand alone LED.

Here's the diagram:

d1Ur7pg.jpg


I also have a question about the necessity of the contactor. I understand that it physically breaks the connection, ensuring that no power is hitting the element but I've also read that the DSPR1 can fire the element very quickly, almost strobe-like. Wouldn't that be harmful to the contactor? I've drawn up another diagram that basically eliminates the contactor and connects the SSR directly to the element and LED.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

I was looking at a similar diagram and asked the same question about the contactor...it is there for isolation since many SRR's failure state is on. The SSR cycling does not cycle the contactor it just flows through it.
 
itsnotrequired said:
my comments:

- make sure the contacts on your key switch and e-stop are rated for the full load current. most 'regular' switches are not rated this high.
- the 2 amp fuse on the pump may be a source of blowing, depending on the pump size. you don't really need it.
- the contactor is there is a means of isolation for the ssr. ssr's tend to fail in the closed position so it is nice to have that means of complete isolation. the dspr1 fires the ssr, not the contactor. the contactor only opens/closes when main power is removed/applied to the panel.
Click to expand...

- The switches are Auber's SW8 (keyed) and SW6 (E-Stop) and the info on the site says they're rated for 10 amps, which now obviously seems like that's not enough since 30 amps are coming down the lines.

- Is there a fuse size (say 4 amps?) that would still protect the pump without causing unnecessary fuse-blowing?

- Ah, I was under the impression that the contactor would be closing and opening as the SSR triggered power to flow to the element. I'll keep it line.

Thanks for getting back to me.
 
If you're not going to use the GFCI tripping type of EPO circuit, then you will need to move the contactor in front of all the other circuitry and switch the contactor coil with the keyswitch in series with an NC block on the EPO switch. You don't really want 240 V & 20 -25A flowing thru your EPO switch.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
If you're not going to use the GFCI tripping type of EPO circuit, then you will need to move the contactor in front of all the other circuitry and switch the contactor coil with the keyswitch in series with an NC block on the EPO switch. You don't really want 240 V & 20 -25A flowing thru your EPO switch.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

the only disadvantage to this approach is that there is not ssr isolation when the element is off and you want to run the pump. the ssr could fail and turn the element on when you don't want it on. ultimate approach would be to keep the element contactor and add the contactor you are describing. of course, this adds costs, needs more space, etc.

or go with the gfci e-stop technique (which i personally don't agree with).
 
itsnotrequired said:
the only disadvantage to this approach is that there is not ssr isolation when the element is off and you want to run the pump. the ssr could fail and turn the element on when you don't want it on. ultimate approach would be to keep the element contactor and add the contactor you are describing. of course, this adds costs, needs more space, etc.

or go with the gfci e-stop technique (which i personally don't agree with).
Click to expand...

I agree that having two contactors is the better option.

Brew on :mug:
 
I've added a contactor in front of the other circuitry and (hopefully correctly) set up the keyed switch and E-Stop on the coil. Does this look correct?

Also, changed the fuse on the pump to 7 amps.

KjQfVo5.jpg
 
Right now, the way you have it drawn the original contactor is useless, because the coil is not switched (it is on whenever the power is on.) So, it provides no switching capability beyond that provided by the main power contactor. I would add a "Heater Enable" switch in the hot leg of the element contactor.

Brew on :mug:
 
looking pretty good. if you want additional protection for the e-stop and key switch, you could wire them downstream of the 7 amp fuse for the pump receptacle. in other words, the 1 amp fuse protects the 120 volt circuits for the pids and the 7 amp fuse protects all the other 120 volt circuitry.
 
doug293cz said:
Right now, the way you have it drawn the original contactor is useless, because the coil is not switched (it is on whenever the power is on.) So, it provides no switching capability beyond that provided by the main power contactor. I would add a "Heater Enable" switch in the hot leg of the element contactor.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

I tried to base the switch wiring on how it looks like Kal has his wired.
 
you are also going to need more contacts on your selector switch. you will need four normally open contacts if you want to select on the ssr firing signals.
 
doug293cz said:
OP has a DP on-off-on switch which is all it requires.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

are you sure it has the adequate amount of contacts? i read '2 no' as one contact at one switch position and the second contact at the other switch position. there will need to be 2 normally open contacts at each of the switch positions (except off) to accomplish what he is trying to do.

i suppose he could tie the negative terminals together and only switch the positive but i don't know if it is a good idea to tie the outputs together at all for two different pid's.
 
itsnotrequired said:
are you sure it has the adequate amount of contacts? i read '2 no' as one contact at one switch position and the second contact at the other switch position. there will need to be 2 normally open contacts at each of the switch positions (except off) to accomplish what he is trying to do.

i suppose he could tie the negative terminals together and only switch the positive but i don't know if it is a good idea to tie the outputs together at all for two different pid's.
Click to expand...

The Auber switch I'm eyeing up has two blocks.
 
OK, so I'll add two more NO blocks for the 3 way switch and I should be set as based on my latest diagram, right?

Like I said before, the way I have the switch wired lines up with Kal's design (and EBrewSupply). Just want to make sure I have everything lined up the way it should.
 
HarpuaScorpio said:
OK, so I'll add two more NO blocks for the 3 way switch and I should be set as based on my latest diagram, right?

Like I said before, the way I have the switch wired lines up with Kal's design (and EBrewSupply). Just want to make sure I have everything lined up the way it should.
Click to expand...

i believe doug was commenting on the element contactor in his last post, not the main power contactor. main power contactor wiring looks good. as you have it shown, the element contactor will always be closed as long as power is on the panel. this somewhat defeats the purpose of having the contactor in the first place. you should add one more switch ('element enable') in series with the element contactor coil. switch would be on when you want to use the element and off when you don't. the ebrew supply diagram has this as does kal's design (kal's has a selector switch for two elements but it the concept is the same, removing power to the element contactor when not in use).
 
Added an "Element Enable" switch to the coil of the element contactor. I painted it red because I will use an Auber red LED maintained switch for this purpose. Just like the pump switch will be a green LED.

How we looking?

D8s9jkT.jpg


itsnotrequired and doug293cz, thank you both for sharing your knowledge and suggestions.
 
looking good but have you considered my earlier suggestion about protecting all the 120V circuitry with the 7 amp fuse (pid's would be protected by the 1 amp fuse)? right now, only the pump receptacle and associated selector switch is protected but you can protect the contactor coils, pump/enable switches, key switch and e-stop with that 7 amp fuse.

and of course, make sure your main power led is rated for 240 volt.
 
itsnotrequired said:
looking good but have you considered my earlier suggestion about protecting all the 120V circuitry with the 7 amp fuse (pid's would be protected by the 1 amp fuse)? right now, only the pump receptacle and associated selector switch is protected but you can protect the contactor coils, pump/enable switches, key switch and e-stop with that 7 amp fuse.

and of course, make sure your main power led is rated for 240 volt.
Click to expand...

I will definitely do that.

The LED is rated for 240 volt.

Thanks again!
 
itsnotrequired said:
i believe doug was commenting on the element contactor in his last post, not the main power contactor. main power contactor wiring looks good. as you have it shown, the element contactor will always be closed as long as power is on the panel. this somewhat defeats the purpose of having the contactor in the first place. you should add one more switch ('element enable') in series with the element contactor coil. switch would be on when you want to use the element and off when you don't. the ebrew supply diagram has this as does kal's design (kal's has a selector switch for two elements but it the concept is the same, removing power to the element contactor when not in use).
Click to expand...

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I think your wording is a little easier to understand than mine.

Brew on :mug:
 
Harpua is there not a manual mode on the PID that would eliminate the need for the dspr?

PS this is almost identical to what I'm building so I'm very interested in the setup and what your control panel looks like.
Thanks!
 
jonatr0n, there is a manual mode on the PID. I'd be remiss if I said I wasn't working in the DSPR for a bit of bling and convenience. It's unnecessary but something I just kinda want.
 
haha nothing wrong with that! Do you have you control panel laid out yet? I was initially planning on putting my vent fan controls in the control panel but now im having second thoughts because of the size and amount of wiring/lack of room in the panel...

View attachment Control Panel Layout 3.pdf
 
jonatr0n said:
haha nothing wrong with that! Do you have you control panel laid out yet? I was initially planning on putting my vent fan controls in the control panel but now im having second thoughts because of the size and amount of wiring/lack of room in the panel...
Click to expand...

I haven't gone back to the layout since I made some of these changes. Gonna finalize the wiring diagram then start laying parts on top of and inside my control box. Gotta try to imagine what makes the best work flow sense and ergonomics.

How close are you to actually start making holes and what not?
 
HarpuaScorpio said:
I haven't gone back to the layout since I made some of these changes. Gonna finalize the wiring diagram then start laying parts on top of and inside my control box. Gotta try to imagine what makes the best work flow sense and ergonomics.

How close are you to actually start making holes and what not?
Click to expand...

I purchased the box on Monday and have all of the switches, PID, plugs, etc... but now you have me contemplating the DSPR cause i think that is a really cool feature for boil control. And it would probably only be like $50 for DSPR, additional contactor, and selector switch. I guess i'm not 100% sure how easy the manual mode is to work on the PID. Can you regulate the voltage/power or is it just constantly on?
 
jonatr0n said:
I purchased the box on Monday and have all of the switches, PID, plugs, etc... but now you have me contemplating the DSPR cause i think that is a really cool feature for boil control. And it would probably only be like $50 for DSPR, additional contactor, and selector switch. I guess i'm not 100% sure how easy the manual mode is to work on the PID. Can you regulate the voltage/power or is it just constantly on?
Click to expand...

You don't need an extra contactor just to add the DSPR. Just use a DP3T (on-off-on) switch to select the control signals for the SSR.

PID manual mode uses pulse width modulation. It turns the power full on for a fraction of the cycle time. Lowest cycle time is about 1 second (depends on PID model.)

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
You don't need an extra contactor just to add the DSPR. Just use a DP3T (on-off-on) switch to select the control signals for the SSR.

PID manual mode uses pulse width modulation. It turns the power full on for a fraction of the cycle time. Lowest cycle time is about 1 second (depends on PID model.)

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Was the additional contractor used to break both hot legs so you don't have to use the poor mans Estop "work-around"?
 
itsnotrequired said:
looking good but have you considered my earlier suggestion about protecting all the 120V circuitry with the 7 amp fuse (pid's would be protected by the 1 amp fuse)? right now, only the pump receptacle and associated selector switch is protected but you can protect the contactor coils, pump/enable switches, key switch and e-stop with that 7 amp fuse.

and of course, make sure your main power led is rated for 240 volt.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty elementary when it comes to wiring diagrams...would you just need to replace the 1amp fuse with a 7amp fuse to accomplish this or would you need to wire it differently?

Also, my indicator LEDs have one normally open (NO) switch and one normally close (NC) switch. Both are rated for 5 Amp at 250VAC. But the LED indicator needs to be powered by 120VAC. Would i just use one hot leg and a neutral instead of using two hot legs? Or do I need to upsize my LEDs?
 
jonatr0n said:
I'm pretty elementary when it comes to wiring diagrams...would you just need to replace the 1amp fuse with a 7amp fuse to accomplish this or would you need to wire it differently?

Also, my indicator LEDs have one normally open (NO) switch and one normally close (NC) switch. Both are rated for 5 Amp at 250VAC. But the LED indicator needs to be powered by 120VAC. Would i just use one hot leg and a neutral instead of using two hot legs? Or do I need to upsize my LEDs?
Click to expand...

a picture is worth a thousand words but here is my thousand word version :D

the 1 amp fuse protects the pids. no changes to that wiring. the 7 amp fuse presently protects only the pump switch and the pump receptacle. to protect the element enable switch by the 7 amp fuse, you need to rework the wire between the line 1 bus and terminal 23 on the switch. the connection at terminal 23 can stay as is but the other end of the wire would be lifted off of the line 1 bus and terminated on the right side of the 7 amp fuse (either at the fuse or at terminal 23 on the pump switch) the element enable switch and element contactor coil are now 'downstream' of the 7 amp fuse and are thus protected by the 7 amp fuse. it would be a similar exercise for the key switch, e-stop and main power contactor coil: lift the conductor between the main power contact and the key switch (at the contactor) and land it downstream of the 7 amp fuse. bam, that portion of the circuit is protected by the 7 amp fuse as well. now all the 120v circuits have some type of fuse protection.

regarding the led and the switch, your understanding is correct. the led would need to be wired between one hot leg and neutral, not both hot legs.
 
jonatr0n said:
I'm pretty elementary when it comes to wiring diagrams...would you just need to replace the 1amp fuse with a 7amp fuse to accomplish this or would you need to wire it differently?
Click to expand...

You'd add a secondary Line 1 bus and put the fuse between the primary and secondary Line 1 buses. Then run all the low current, 120V loads from the secondary Line 1 bus.

jonatr0n said:
Also, my indicator LEDs have one normally open (NO) switch and one normally close (NC) switch. Both are rated for 5 Amp at 250VAC. But the LED indicator needs to be powered by 120VAC. Would i just use one hot leg and a neutral instead of using two hot legs? Or do I need to upsize my LEDs?
Click to expand...

Yes just wire the 120V indicator lights to one of the hot legs and neutral. The hot leg should be switched, not the neutral leg.

Brew on :mug:
 
can anyone do me a favor and possibly modify a wiring diagram to include the additional 7a fuse/bus bar and 110v indicator lights? I'll send you an IOU for $275,000...it's as good as money
 
jonatr0n said:
can anyone do me a favor and possibly modify a wiring diagram to include the additional 7a fuse/bus bar and 110v indicator lights? I'll send you an IOU for $275,000...it's as good as money
Click to expand...

I haven't been ignoring this. My kid got sick earlier this week and, well, that's where my time went. Will get to this probably tomorrow.
 
Your secondary bus needs to come off the switched side of the main power contactor. As shown, you are powering the secondary bus (and everything connected to it) directly from the power mains, with no way to turn off.

Brew on :mug:
 

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