Winemaker trying beer (also, making non-bitter beer?)

[bitterbad]

I've only made wine before, wanna try making beer. Any helpful simple guides on beer making for the wine maker? Any nuance that may not be obvious on how the two are different?

Also, the reason I want to try beer making is because I hate 90% of the beer out there because I have a very sensitive bitter tolerance and any hops at all completely overpower any other flavor. So I decided why not make beer exactly to my taste. Only beer I've ever actually enjoyed has been a very wheaty gruit(?) with maybe like 2 IBU. Tasted just like bread. Absolutely loved it. Any tips for something like this? On cursory research it seems the point of the herbs in gruit is to bitter it in place of hops, but what if you just don't even want that amount of bitterness? Are hops / bittering replacements a necessity for the physical process of fermentation / aging or something? Could i just have a one-note wort with wheat and nothing else?

 

[DBhomebrew]

The biggest difference is in the making of the must/wort. Yeast do their yeasty thing.

Hops provide protection against infection. You could brew styles that typically have minimal amounts. Blonde, English mild, etc.

Or, much closer to wine making, how about a beer strength mead? I'm currently drinking an exceptional batch. 5%, carbonated, just wildflower honey. No extra additives or flavor. It's very dry and refreshing.

 

[IslandLizard]

There are significant differences between making wine and brewing beer.

I advise first reading around here on basic brewing techniques to get an idea of what's involved. Once you know brewing beer is for you, I recommend buying John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed.
Here's the link to an old, 1st edition, online version, to get a glimpse of what's involved. But the newer, 4th ed. offers a modern look and updated processes for homebrewing beer.

Also, beer brewing has its own vernacular, so you'd need to familiarize yourself with terminology and various sub-processes involved.

Although the fermentation process of beer is similar to that of wine, there are noted differences too. For example beers aren't sulfited, and need to be protected from oxidation. Racking to secondaries is not necessary, and can be detrimental to most beers, so best to be avoided. Proper carbonation is an important aspect of beer too, for the slight acidity it adds as well as mouthfeel and aromatic sensation.

Yes, you can brew beer without hops, but it will be relatively sweet tasting without the slight bitterness from the hops that helps to compensate. Sure you can brew 2-10 IBU beer. If you like the flavor of hops but not the bitterness, only "dry hop" your fermented beer, as it will add mostly flavor and very little bitterness.

 

[Upstate12866]

I am also a fan of very low IBU wheat beers, though perhaps not as low as what you mention! Wheat styles are a great basic foundation, including recipes that do a 50/50 split of pale or pilsner malt with wheat malt or unmalted flaked wheat.

And Island Lizard is right that bitterness is not always the same as hops, since bitterness compounds come mainly from the heat of boiling the hops. So along with dry hopping, using less hops or using lower Alpha Acid hops, you can think about short boil times. A more extreme technique I saw is to put your hops in 500ml of 150 degree water for 45 min to extract it without the full heat of boiling, thus minimizing IBU. You can boil your wort separately and just toss in the hop tea.

There seem to be styles and examples for every possible iteration so don't feel bad about trying your own ideas here.

My instinct would be to try to integrate a little hops just for the minor help it might give to shelf stability (though that might be minimal at these levels) and for some imperceptible balance, like tannins can offer in wine. Low AA hops are available, and they even make "American Noble" (brand name) hops that are designed to be practically devoid of AA (I can't vouch for them though). So within that huge cornucopia of hop varieties you may find something that works for you.

You might try a recipe like 50/50 pale malt and wheat malt or unmalted flaked wheat, and you could do a quick 10 min boil with very little low-AA hops. In a 5 gallon recipe, maybe .3 oz of 5% AA hops to give you an idea. I would recommend first boiling the wort you made for a time (this helps with the final product's body and clarity) and then add the hops at the end. Cooling the wort quickly at the end will also help control bitterness that comes from heat.

 

[D the Catastrophist]

Like you, I dislike bitter, hoppy beers. For me I have found that sour beers (flemish reds, ect), and lighter beers like hefeweizens are the ones I prefer to drink. Before you waste the money, time and energy trying to brew beer, I would try to find a few beer styles you do like. Luckily most grocery stores have some selections in single bottles so you can try a selection without having to buy a six pack of one style.

 

[BrewBerg]

You might want to try making a grisette! Wheat-heavy for that bready character, and you can toss some more interesting malt character in there like flaked rye or oats. <5% ABV all said and done. Very low on the hops for little to no bitterness. The yeast strain is very tolerant of temperature deviation (Look at Whiteout, Napoleon, or Rustic from Imperial Yeast).

 

[DBhomebrew]

You might want to try making a grisette! Wheat-heavy for that bready character, and you can toss some more interesting malt character in there like flaked rye or oats. <5% ABV all said and done. Very low on the hops for little to no bitterness. The yeast strain is very tolerant of temperature deviation (Look at Whiteout, Napoleon, or Rustic from Imperial Yeast).

Loving this easy drinking grisette!

 

[Rish]

Any helpful simple guides on beer making for the wine maker?

You might want to look into extract brewing to start. There is a forum dedicated to it here. Also, look at no boil recipes and making "hop tea" to be added for flavor and aroma with little to no bittering. These make the process very simple. You probably have all the equipment needed for brewing beer using these techniques. Cheers!

 

[bitterbad]

Loving all of these responses in general, I now know more about hops. I'll take the advice and look into hefeweizen and grisette. I assumed gruit may be up my ally but based on the responses maybe not, is it bitter after all? I've never had any so I don't know.

The biggest difference is in the making of the must/wort. Yeast do their yeasty thing.

Hops provide protection against infection. You could brew styles that typically have minimal amounts. Blonde, English mild, etc.

Or, much closer to wine making, how about a beer strength mead? I'm currently drinking an exceptional batch. 5%, carbonated, just wildflower honey. No extra additives or flavor. It's very dry and refreshing.

I've thought about doing this, a cyser without the apples if you will, I've actually had this exact thing before at a meadery and it was quite good, very dry just like yours.

 

[hottpeper13]

I like using The Yeast Bay's Saison blend for my grisette. The phenolics can be controlled by temp. I start at 68* for 2-3 days then up to 74* for the remaining 14 days. Its a diastaticus strain and the ADF is 83-100%.
I like the low AA hops Hull Mellon and the German Monroe has a raspberry-ish flavor.

 

[IslandLizard]

is it bitter after all?

Bitterness is an essential part of beer to counteract the sweetness. Sours are an exception, they're typically low in bitterness (10-15 IBU) as higher bitterness doesn't go well with sourness.

Pretty much all gruit mixtures lend some sort of "bitterness" to beer too. But it's a different kind of bitterness than hops. Bitterness perception also depends on the person, and and I'm sure one gets acclimated to bitterness with time, increasing tolerance.

As a homebrewer you have 100% control over the final bitterness in beer, as the brewer controls the kinds of hops used, their amounts, and time they spend in the wort boil/steep.

Hops' bitterness potential is expressed in %AA (Alpha Acids).
To keep bitterness lower, use:

a) either hops with lower %AA,​

b) less hops in the wort boil (or steeped in hot wort) and/or​

c) for shorter times.​

Hops' %AA, wort temperature, and time spent at certain temperatures are the 3 factors that determine how much bitterness is formed.

 

[Bobby_M]

Make sure you understand there's a difference between bitterness (for balance) and hoppiness in terms of flavor and aromas.

Do you hate the smell or taste of hops or are you turned off by beers that have a balance towards bitter?

There are a bunch of other examples, but if you compare a standard American Lager to a German Weissbier, they both have approximately the same bitterness from a chemical perspective, the perceived bitterness of the American Lager is quite a bit higher because the final beer has less body and residual sweetness.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with manipulating the bitterness of typically bitter-leaning styles, but just understand that the drinkability may be compromised a bit. Don't be too drastic. If a recipe calls for 20 IBUs in the bittering charge (early boil addition), back off to 10 IBUs instead of skipping the addition altogether.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Any helpful simple guides on beer making for the wine maker? Any nuance that may not be obvious on how the two are different?

Low %AA 'british' and 'german' style hops may provide better results than most 'american west coast' style hops. Fuggle and Golding (I use both) come to mind - they have been used as a bittering addition for generations.

Before you waste the money, time and energy trying to brew beer, I would try to find a few beer styles you do like. Luckily most grocery stores have some selections in single bottles so you can try a selection without having to buy a six pack of one style.

Agreed.

@bitterbad : be cautious about anything dry hopped. I know some people who don't like 'hoppy'/'bitter' beers. For them, that includes a lightly dry hopped American Lager (Cascasde hops).

For them, IBUs didn't seem to matter as much as the variety of the hop. For example, in a big stout, higher %AA 'American west coast' hops seemed to be a problem; while 'british' hops (Golding) were fine.

You might want to look into extract brewing to start. There is a forum dedicated to it here. Also, look at no boil recipes and making "hop tea" to be added for flavor and aroma with little to no bittering. These make the process very simple. You probably have all the equipment needed for brewing beer using these techniques. Cheers!

Brand and style selection for the unhopped DME is going to be a factor. Using DME, rather than LME, avoids any complications from a stale product.

It may be that a 60 minute boil is desirable here - as it would boil off compounds that might be the cause of the undesired 'bitterness'. Also, some varieties of hops can also impart a grassy-like taste when steeped / dry hopped.

 

[bitterbad]

Do you hate the smell or taste of hops or are you turned off by beers that have a balance towards bitter?

I aught to have been clearer, I don't like the taste of hops and I'm very bitter sensitive. I'm in the roughly 25% of people that literally taste more things than the rest, those things usually being specific compounds that make bitterness. I've had low bitterness hopped beers before and while it's more palatable the hops still drown out everything else.

Bitterness is an essential part of beer to counteract the sweetness. Sours are an exception, they're typically low in bitterness (10-15 IBU) as higher bitterness doesn't go well with sourness.

Yes, you can brew beer without hops, but it will be relatively sweet tasting without the slight bitterness from the hops that helps to compensate.

Sentiments like these are so silly to me, like, yeah! I like sweet things! I like things that taste good! I like the taste of malt, I get Reed's Ginger Beer just for the sweet malt flavor! Hell I'd down a pure malt soda! Sweet soda is a multi-billion dollar industry! The idea of avoiding sweet like it's obviously bad is just so silly, something I've never understood about beer brewers or wine makers alike. But the make up of our tongues are literally physically different so live and let live, it's a silly thing to argue about

I guess if a sweet beer is bad for other reasons I'll be finding out soon enough! But right now when I imagine a sweet wheaty malty beverage my mouth waters at the idea.

 

[Rish]

This beer is sweet, very sweet. It also has hops (though you probably couldn't pick them out) that balance flavors and help shelf life. They aren't mutually exclusive but, of course, do what you want. We're just trying to respond to your request for information. Good luck with whatever you come up with.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From their web site (link):

Willamette is another low %AA hop that can work well in lower IBU malt forward beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sentiments like these are so silly to me, like, yeah! I like sweet things! I like things that taste good! I like the taste of malt, I get Reed's Ginger Beer just for the sweet malt flavor! Hell I'd down a pure malt soda! Sweet soda is a multi-billion dollar industry! The idea of avoiding sweet like it's obviously bad is just so silly, something I've never understood about beer brewers or wine makers alike. But the make up of our tongues are literally physically different so live and let live, it's a silly thing to argue about

I guess if a sweet beer is bad for other reasons I'll be finding out soon enough! But right now when I imagine a sweet wheaty malty beverage my mouth waters at the idea.

I don't think it was an argument. Of course taste is relative but there is a desire and moderate necessity for some level of balance in all things tasted. Acids are used to balance food richness/fat. You don't put 2" of icing on a cake because it's too rich and too sweet, unless you're the type of person to skip the cake and just go after the icing with a spoon.

 

[InspectorJon]

I aught to have been clearer, I don't like the taste of hops and I'm very bitter sensitive.

There may be a malt beverage for you but I don’t think it is beer as we have come to know it. Traditional beer has 4 ingredients: Water, malted grain, yeast and HOPS. You may have unintentionally started this thread with the wrong title. Beer making involves hops.

Maybe try starting another thread like Winemaker wanting to make a no hops malt beverage.

For many people Hops is an acquired taste.

Editing to add that my wife hates hops so such a hop free malt beverage might appeal to her.

 

[BPenny]

I've only made wine before, wanna try making beer. Any helpful simple guides on beer making for the wine maker? Any nuance that may not be obvious on how the two are different?

Also, the reason I want to try beer making is because I hate 90% of the beer out there because I have a very sensitive bitter tolerance and any hops at all completely overpower any other flavor. So I decided why not make beer exactly to my taste. Only beer I've ever actually enjoyed has been a very wheaty gruit(?) with maybe like 2 IBU. Tasted just like bread. Absolutely loved it. Any tips for something like this? On cursory research it seems the point of the herbs in gruit is to bitter it in place of hops, but what if you just don't even want that amount of bitterness? Are hops / bittering replacements a necessity for the physical process of fermentation / aging or something? Could i just have a one-note wort with wheat and nothing else?

If you already make wine, and want to try making beer, why not make a beer/wine hybrid. Every year in late summer/fall, I make a few beers by crushing about 15lbs grapes and letting it spontaneously ferment on the skins for 5-10 days, at that point, I gently press the must and add the actively fermenting must to 3-5 gallons of a simple beer wort that is usually pilsner malt, spelt (could sub wheat), a little oats and if you like a little bit of munich, vienna, aromatic, etc. I generally hop it with anywhere from 7-30 IBUs, but technically you don’t have to add any hops. At a lower hopping rate it usually develops some sourness, but not always. Either way it makes a really nice complex spontaneously fermented beer that is usually much cleaner than what you would expect from a spontaneous beer ferment, and doesn’t require extensive aging like lambic tends to, likely for the same reason that spontaneously fermented wines generally taste a lot cleaner than Lambics or other spontaneous beers.

 

[bitterbad]

If you already make wine, and want to try making beer, why not make a beer/wine hybrid. Every year in late summer/fall, I make a few beers by crushing about 15lbs grapes and letting it spontaneously ferment on the skins for 5-10 days, at that point, I gently press the must and add the actively fermenting must to 3-5 gallons of a simple beer wort that is usually pilsner malt, spelt (could sub wheat), a little oats and if you like a little bit of munich, vienna, aromatic, etc. I generally hop it with anywhere from 7-30 IBUs, but technically you don’t have to add any hops. At a lower hopping rate it usually develops some sourness, but not always. Either way it makes a really nice complex spontaneously fermented beer that is usually much cleaner than what you would expect from a spontaneous beer ferment, and doesn’t require extensive aging like lambic tends to, likely for the same reason that spontaneously fermented wines generally taste a lot cleaner than Lambics or other spontaneous beers.

So the idea is a wild ferment beer?? Sounds very sacrilegious, I like it.

 

[BPenny]

So the idea is a wild ferment beer?? Sounds very sacrilegious, I like it.

Yeah I’m not an expert, but I would guess it ferments cleaner than a spontaneous all malt beer because by the time you add the wine must to the wort it is already a pretty active yeast fermentation with a moderate alcohol content and a low ph, so many of the enteric bacteria and other funky stuff have theoretically died or gone dormant. And then even 5-10 ibus in the wort will suppress the bacteria even further. That being said, depending on the condition of the grapes, you can still get some definite funk, especially for the first month after bottling, but after 2-6 months of aging in the bottle it will typically work itself out.

 

[pvtpublic]

Go out to your local breweries and get some flights. Download the BJCP style guidelines, read the descriptions, and try the commercial examples of styles that sound appealing to you. Try stuff that doesn't initially sound appealing also, for example, an ordinary bitter. Start brewing from extract kits, it's the closest process to making wine. Get out there, try stuff and get acquainted with the different styles and find your palate! Just like you would with wine!