Will 2000 watts maintain a boil of 12+gallons?

[kpr121]

Here I go, already thinking of the next upgrade in my brewery. I just finished my control panel to use 5500 watts on either the HLT or BK, only one at a time. My build can be found HERE.

Here’s my upgrade thoughts:

I’ve been thinking about how I will want to operate in the event that I have a long enough day away from SWMBO and I want to do a double batch.

First option is to just throw my HLT on my old propane burner to run the strike/sparge up to temps.

Second option is installing a separately run 110v 2000w element with manually controlled on/off in my HLT in order to assist in heat times of first batch as well as augment some heating of a second batch.

I wouldn’t have to buy anything for either of these options since I've used a rendition of each in my previous brew setups. Of course the second option would take a little more work.


Then this got me thinking I could put a separate 110 2000w element in each the HLT and BK.

This is the general process I think I could use (Naming convention for both HLT and BK: Element 1 = 5500w 220V, Element 2 = 2000w 110V):

1. Fire HLT Elements 1 and 2 for strike.
2. Mash In, Fire HLT Elements 1 and 2 for sparge (run a recirculation during a portion/all of the mash through a HERMS heat exchanger)
3. Drain first runnings, turn off HLT Element 1, Fire BK Element 1 to begin heating to boil. HLT Element 2 continues to heat sparge water while first runnings are draining.
4. Batch Sparge into MLT.
5. Fill HLT for second batch. Fire HLT Element 2 to augment heating.
6. Drain sparge to BK, fire BK Elements 1 and 2 to get to boil.
7. Once a boil is started, BK Element 2 to maintain boil (SEE QUESTION BELOW). HLT Elements 1 and 2 is used to continue heating strike water, or for mash recirculation of second batch.
8. When first batch is complete, focus all power into second batch wherever I am at in the process.
9. Profit!

So the big question is if 2000 watts would maintain a boil on 12+ gallons?

If it can’t, than I could still use the 110 elements to augment heating (at least have something heating up the ‘off’ vessel while it can). There might be some additional lag time between Batch 1 boil and Batch 2 mash, but I think I could heat the strike water to 170 in an hour. It would also speed up single brew days as well.

If the 2000w isnt enough to maintain a boil, I would be less likely to install the seperate element in the BK.

Thoughts?

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I use two 2000 watt elements. For about 13 gallons, both elements will give a jumping boil, one will give a "slight hump with small bubbles" boil.

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

Theoretically, if you insulated good, it would... but you will find that ~3-4000W is what people use to boil... which is more effort, insulating and maintaining the insulation, or doing a PID w/ manual control and an SSR on a single 5500W element?...

optionally, you could try running the 5500W/240V and the 2000W/120V both at 120V, and get an extra 1375W, which is 3375W and would boil nicely..


-mike

 

[kpr121]

I use two 2000 watt elements. For about 13 gallons, both elements will give a jumping boil, one will give a "slight hump with small bubbles" boil.

What kind of insulation (if any) are you using? Is this in a keggle or other vessel?

 

[brew-n-que]

I had a 2000W element in a 9G kettle....it was barely capable of boiling 7G, even with an insulating jacket (reflectix)

 

[kpr121]

Theoretically, if you insulated good, it would... but you will find that ~3-4000W is what people use to boil... which is more effort, insulating and maintaining the insulation, or doing a PID w/ manual control and an SSR on a single 5500W element?...

optionally, you could try running the 5500W/240V and the 2000W/120V both at 120V, and get an extra 1375W, which is 3375W and would boil nicely..


-mike

Thanks for the input. At first thought I don’t think that bumping the 5500 watt elements at 110 would be a good idea, but I guess I could hook up a switch to shut off one hot leg of the element and push it to neutral so that it only sees 110v. Hmm, might be an idea but it sounds like a pain for something I wont be doing all that often.

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

Thanks for the input. At first thought I don’t think that bumping the 5500 watt elements at 110 would be a good idea, but I guess I could hook up a switch to shut off one hot leg of the element and push it to neutral so that it only sees 110v. Hmm, might be an idea but it sounds like a pain for something I wont be doing all that often.

yes, it starts to get complicated compared to a single 5500W element and a Auber PID with manual control and a SSR...

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

What kind of insulation (if any) are you using? Is this in a keggle or other vessel?

Uninsulated keggle.

 

[kpr121]

yes, it starts to get complicated compared to a single 5500W element and a Auber PID with manual control and a SSR...

The evil, ghetto-brewer in me keeps whispering "heat stick," but I dont know if I want to go down that route either...

 

[kpr121]

I guess now that my controlled 5500watters work, I could do some testing. Would a manually set PID at 36% (2000/5500) be an accurate test?

 

[l3asturd]

Well, not really. Since setting the PID to 36% would mean the element is using 5500 Watts for 36% of a duty cycle. The closest thing I can think of is running your 5500 Watt element on 120VAC which would only be 1375 Watts. I think 1375 Watts would get a boil going, in 2 or 3 days.

I am interested in the comparison of the 5500 Watt at 36% and a 2000 Watt at 100%. Hmm.

 

[kpr121]

I am interested in the comparison of the 5500 Watt at 36% and a 2000 Watt at 100%. Hmm.

Me too... when I get some time I'm gonna do some more time tests (took an hour to get 12 gal from 59 to roaring boil with 5500 full blast last night, ambient around 60) .

I would think that while there are differences in the way the heat is transferred the total time that it takes should be similar since the total power output will be approx the same. One thing I think would help is recirculating or agitating the water somehow to evenly distribute the heat.

 

[audger]

I am interested in the comparison of the 5500 Watt at 36% and a 2000 Watt at 100%. Hmm.

5500w at 36% PWM is essentially 1980w continuous

 

[lschiavo]

5500w at 36% PWM is essentially 1980w continuous

Right. It's all about the power delivered to the kettle.

 

[kpr121]

Right. It's all about the power delivered to the kettle.

Thats what I was thinking... and I dont think anyone keeps their 5500W element at 36% during the boil... which means I dont gain much by adding the 2000W element in the BK (other than to increase speed to boil).

I think I will put one 2000w element in the HLT, that way it can assist the 5500 during first batch heating, and augment some heating of the second batch. I have a feeling there will definitely be some lag time on double brew days as the first batch will be done boiling before the second batch in the HLT is up to strike temp.

 

[kpr121]

Might be very efficient (little down time) if either of the batches were 5 gallons. Im trying to think what order would be better - probably 5 gallon first, then 10 gallon.

 

[tarponteaser]

Great info and a timely thread. I've got a 50 qt aluminum pot I wish to install a camco element in to boil 7-8 gals ( basically 5 gal batches..some of which might be double IPA all grain).

At first I was going to get the camco 5500 watt element, but read that it would be overkill, and considered getting the 4500 watt element. Never used a PID, but from reading this thread, manually adjusting the element via pid to maintain a easy boil eliminates the issue of too much power does it not? I guess the question 'boils down' to which size element should I get for the 50 qt pot? Ironically lasts I checked, the 5500 was cheaper with the free shipping than the 4500 was with additional shipping.

Thanks

 

[brew-n-que]

Exactly. 5500w is cheaper, will heat the water to your desired temp quicker, and when you get to boil you can dial it back by using a PID in manual mode.

 

[Ravenshead]

I have a 2000W element installed in an un-insulated keggle. It'll get 7 gallons of water to about 185 F in a semi-reasonable time. It will almost hold a boil once you use the burner to get it there. I use it to reduce the amount of propane I use and keep the noise down during the boil.

 

[kpr121]

I have a 2000W element installed in an un-insulated keggle. It'll get 7 gallons of water to about 185 F in a semi-reasonable time. It will almost hold a boil once you use the burner to get it there. I use it to reduce the amount of propane I use and keep the noise down during the boil.

Thanks for the input. I think I could make this work for a 5 gallon / 10 gallon double brew day

 

[kpr121]

Been a while and never really got around to a solid plan for double brew days (12 gallon batches last a while in our house since my wife is now pregnant!) but here's a third idea I just thought of during last brew day:

Leave a heat exchanger hooked up in the BK during the boil, and use a temp controller on my HLT pump to recirculate the HLT water as well as maintain a boil. I have rolling boil with the PID set to 55-60% of 5500 watt power, if I ramp that up I should be able to transfer heat over to the HLT without losing a boil. I can pinch down the flow rate with a ball valve in order to maintain a boil. Just a matter of how slow is too slow?

The last couple of brews I have been maintaining a full HLT at 170 during sparge, this leaves me with some hot water at the end of the session to use for cleaning. I guess I could probably use that leftover water as strike for the first mash, and let the BK boil and heat sparge water for the hour long boil (and mash).