Why Not Boil Your Grain?

[wobdee]

This may sound dumb but I've been researching decoction mashing and the grain gets boiled up to three different times so why not just do a direct heat or infusion step mash then boil the whole mash for 10 minutes or so to get those mallaird reactions or melaniodins? I probably missed something but hey that's what forums are for right?

I brew in a 400 micron s/s basket BIAB so it would be easy to bring it all to a boil then pull the basket, let drain and continue the boil. Am I nuts?

 

[Yooper]

This may sound dumb but I've been researching decoction mashing and the grain gets boiled up to three different times so why not just do a direct heat or infusion step mash then boil the whole mash for 10 minutes or so to get those mallaird reactions or melaniodins? I probably missed something but hey that's what forums are for right?

I brew in a 400 micron s/s basket BIAB so it would be easy to bring it all to a boil then pull the basket, let drain and continue the boil. Am I nuts?

A decoction "works" because the grain is held at saccrification rest temperatures before boiling it. Tannin extraction is not an issue with a decoction because you pull a very thick decoction, with very little liquid, so that the pH does not get too high. Tannin extraction is a function of temperature and pH, so if you have a thick decoction and the mash pH is in range, tannins won't be an issue.

In a regular mash, particularly a thin mash as in BIAB, the pH would be too high to boil the grain without extracting tannins.

Also, when you pull the decoction, you bring it to the next rest temperature so you don't denature your enzymes. If you boiled all of the mash, you would denature all of the enzymes.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks for the reply Yooper. But what if my mash PH is at 5.2-5.4 and the mash is already converted so it doesn't matter if I denature the enzymes?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the reply Yooper. But what if my mash PH is at 5.2-5.4 and the mash is already converted so it doesn't matter if I denature the enzymes?

Lots of people decoct to mash out temps, by pulling liquid instead of grain at that point. I don't see any reason to boil the mash, though.

 

[wobdee]

Hmm, just seems like if you want the decoction richness you need to boil grains so why would it matter if you boiled a small part of the mash 3 times or just did the whole mash at once as long as your PH is OK and you've reached conversion?

It would also help keep the hot break inside the basket and possibly make for clearer wort.

 

[wobdee]

Heck, might as well throw some hops in there as well.

 

[gtg644w]

only researching myself... look up the "Schmitz process," a modified decoction method. (or "Kesselmaische that Mashweasel mentioned or the Double decoction variation" that the Kaiser wrote about in below link.)

Sounds like you need to keep the enzymes happy in one pot while you boil the mash and then add that "decocted mash" back in some method while keeping favorable temps (exercise left to the user). Enzymes go to work for a while and then you go back to work. For me I am just curious if this would have a payoff down the road when I attempt a Marzen.

Not an expert, but I think Yooper was giving input that you need enzymes when you do the add-back of the decoction to get the pay off (if any, havent tried it).

see also
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

 

[wobdee]

Lots of good info there, thanks. That Schmitz process looks interesting and may be worth a try.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Other than for creating melanoidin, boiling a decoction burst hard starch that gets stuck in the ends of the kernel. The excess starch in solution is converted later on in the process. Which is one of the reasons for a higher yield from decoction method. Boiling, reduces mash viscosity and protein gum, lessening the chances of a stuck sparge. Boiling the entire main mash all at once, after conversion will cause starch to burst, enzymatic action has ceased, due to temperature. Thus, excess starch carry over. Starch carry over lessens beer stability, shelf life and quality. The other thing is that decoction boil volumes are a lot less than the entire volume of mash. Smaller volumes are quicker to boil and easier to work with. It takes about 30 minutes of boiling to begin creating malanoidin. Boiling the entire mash isn't going to do too much, except for adding starch at the wrong time. The mash might jell up during a short 10 minute boil, causing sparge issues.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks for the info Vlad, that makes sense. I think I'm going a modified Schmitz decoction. I started a new thread on it if you'd like to take a look see. Thanks