muels
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Why?
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Why is this happening. (Air in lines)
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You may have a slight leak around the worm clamp or the QD at the keg
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muels
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Shouldn't the positive pressure (10psi Co2, 40*F) keep the air out? I understand the physics side of it, no matter the pressure some air molecules will get in, but not that much that quick.
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muels
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By the way, I am getting a foamy pour.
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Have you checked for leaks?
What physic's do you have that moves stuff from a low pressure to a high pressure
It is CO2 in the lines not air - as you said if there was a leak beer would be coming out not air going in. I have seen it happen when CO2 comes out of solution in the lines during pouring (and this makes sense since you said you have a foamy pour).
What temp is the keg at, and how long / what diameter are your lines?
Clearly, it's not ingress of air, it's CO2 coming out of solution as mattd2 explained.
Two ways that happens: either the CO2 pressure being applied is lower than that required to maintain the carbonation level of the beer, or there is a temperature gradient between the bottom of the keg (where the dip tube draws) and the fittings and tubing at the top of the keg. Tubing length or diameter has nothing to do with this particular phenomenon...
Cheers!
Two ways that happens: either the CO2 pressure being applied is lower than that required to maintain the carbonation level of the beer, or there is a temperature gradient between the bottom of the keg (where the dip tube draws) and the fittings and tubing at the top of the keg. Tubing length or diameter has nothing to do with this particular phenomenon...
Cheers!
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muels
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Thanks for the advice? The pressure in the keg (and the whole system) is 10 psi. The temperature is 40*F. I am going to throw a computer fan in there. Maybe that will help. My lines are about 5 ft. Any other suggestions?
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riderkb
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Did you force carb at a higher pressure? If you saturate the beer at a higher pressure and serve at a lower pressure it will certainly foam up. Turn off the CO2 line and vent the keg a little. The excess gas in the beer will let you serve it at a slow rate for a few days, then hook it back up again.
You might also need to drop the pressure. Beer stored at 40F/10psi is way to fizzy for my tastes. I like 48F/8psi, but that is just me. Some would call my beer warm, flat, and bitter.
You might also need to drop the pressure. Beer stored at 40F/10psi is way to fizzy for my tastes. I like 48F/8psi, but that is just me. Some would call my beer warm, flat, and bitter.
Check for a bad o-ring at the top of the dip tube. You might have a small leak of CO2 into the dip tube.
What size are your drink lines? In the picture, they look like the same size as your air lines (which I assume are 3/8"), although it may just be hard to tell from the picture. An imbalanced keg system can definitely be the cause of your foamy pours... Though I'm not sure about the air in the line).
You want 3/16" ID drink lines. I carb/serve at 12 psi and use 8 feet of 3/16" line.
Here is a good page on balancing your keg system:
http://www.franklinbrew.org/wp/?page_id=98
Technically, I should be using 6.7 feet of line for mine, but I find I get a better pour with longer line.
Either your pressure is set too low or your keg is overcarbed.
CO2 is coming out of solution.
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muels
Well-Known Member
Changed Lines to 10ft. And put a fan in the bottom of the fridge to even out the temp. I'll report back tomorrow!
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muels
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No dice. Still have bubbles in the line and a foamy pour. Just kegged a cider and a stout; gonna let them carb up and see what happens. Temp at 39 (on top and bottom) and pressure at 9.
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Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
This.
Pour a beer, and watch the lines. If you see tiny bubbles appearing somewhere in the lines that are moving up the lines like a little line of ants marching, then CO2 is coming out of solution. Likely because there isn't enough pressure to maintain the level your beer was carbed at.
Any chance the liquid disconnect top disassembly screw being loose can cause this? Wondering if it being loose can allow air to get sucked in through it with the pressure of the liquid being pushed through.
Rev.
Rev.
With it being under pressure, wouldn't there be beer leaking if something were loose?
As Max said earlier you lines look way too big for only 5'
Your keg is overcarbed. 100% of the time when I have this problem it's because the keg is overcarbed. Turn off the gas and bleed the keg of it's pressure via the pressure relief valve, in an hour or two do it again and listen to how much C02 comes out when you vent it. Eventually you can get it back into balance, but it starts with shutting off the C02.
Also this, although I think that's a secondary issue. But your lines should be no more then 5/16". I run 1/4" lines at minimum of 6 ft to avoid gas release inside the line. All that said, there's only 1 fix to overcarbed beer, and that's to bleed off the extra gas.
Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
I am 99% sure the problem is "overcarbed" beer as well.
You can bleed off gas, or you can gradually increase your serving pressure until you hit the equilibrium (within reason of course).
You will end up drinking overcarbed beer, but at least you aren't getting a glass full of foam, plus, it may just end up being on the upper side of the carbonation scale for the style you are drinking.
Even just the slightest bit out of equilibrium will cause bubbles in the line, which will make a glass full of foam.
Also, regardless of line diameter, I would never run less than 7 or 8 feet. I run 10 foot lines on all my taps (3/16id).
You can bleed off gas, or you can gradually increase your serving pressure until you hit the equilibrium (within reason of course).
You will end up drinking overcarbed beer, but at least you aren't getting a glass full of foam, plus, it may just end up being on the upper side of the carbonation scale for the style you are drinking.
Even just the slightest bit out of equilibrium will cause bubbles in the line, which will make a glass full of foam.
Also, regardless of line diameter, I would never run less than 7 or 8 feet. I run 10 foot lines on all my taps (3/16id).
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muels
Well-Known Member
Tightened all the connections, I'll check again tomorrow and repost.
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muels
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My post didn't update so I didn't see all the other replies. They are 3/16 bevflex lines. Started at 5ft changed to 10ft. It's running at 10psi. I will replace the ring tomorrow and go from there.
Yes, there are tiny bubbles forming immediately after a pour, they then congregate to either side of lines (shank and post) after a while.
Edited to add: this is my 10th keg or so and the first time it has happened. All the while having 5ft lines.
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Yes, there are tiny bubbles forming immediately after a pour, they then congregate to either side of lines (shank and post) after a while.
Edited to add: this is my 10th keg or so and the first time it has happened. All the while having 5ft lines.
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Any chance your regulator could be off? As far as inaccurate pressure readings.
It's over-carbonated.
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muels
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I'm going to hijack my own thread! Hard to tell if it's over carbed because I have to wait long enough for the foam to go down that it flattens out a bit and tastes good. What can I do to slightly de-carb an over-carbed beer? Remove pressure, shake a few seconds, release pressure again. Continue till it's back to where I want it? Would like to have it ready to drink by the 8th of November for a party.
Thanks all
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I don't remember if you said this before, but did you force carbonate at a higher pressure, then lower to serving pressures? Because if you didn't, I don't see how it could be overcarbed. 10 psi would be less than 3 volumes, no matter how cold it is. Unless your regulator is inaccurate??
Where is your thermometer locate? Is your keg up against the cooling coils? I wonder if you could have a frozen keg?? Maybe try pulling the keg out and letting it warm up for a overnight. Then release the CO2 (so that it does flow back into your regulator), and hook it back up to your system and see if that fixes it.
Where is your thermometer locate? Is your keg up against the cooling coils? I wonder if you could have a frozen keg?? Maybe try pulling the keg out and letting it warm up for a overnight. Then release the CO2 (so that it does flow back into your regulator), and hook it back up to your system and see if that fixes it.
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muels
Well-Known Member
I chill the beer to serving temp. I set it 30 and roll it for 5 minutes. Then I turn the gas off and release the pressure. I set it back to serving pressure and put it back in the fridge. Usually ready to drink within a day or 2 after that.
I have 2 thermometers, one on top and one on bottom.
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I have 2 thermometers, one on top and one on bottom.
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If you simply shut off the gas and burp the head space a few times a day it'll tame the beast within a couple of days...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Given everything you've told us, I'm thinking it's a case of a frozen keg. Release the pressure and see if there is a frozen block inside...
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muels
Well-Known Member
I have 2 other kegs and bottles in the fridge and nothing else is froze. I can still drink from the keg with no issues and it tastes great. The temp in the fridge has only read 38 at its lowest. What leads you to believe its froze? I'll open it up and take a look though.
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Grannyknot
Well-Known Member
I just think your system isn't balanced. Plain & Simple. No loose connections, no faulty equipment, no frozen kegs
Your serving pressure isn't enough to maintain the volumes of carbonation that you put in the beer when you forced carbed.
Either do the slow bleed technique or up your serving pressure to reach equilibrium.
Your serving pressure isn't enough to maintain the volumes of carbonation that you put in the beer when you forced carbed.
Either do the slow bleed technique or up your serving pressure to reach equilibrium.
It's easy to check, and if it is frozen, then you have your answer. If it isn't, than at least you've ruled this out. A keg can freeze even when the temps are reading in the high 30s if it is sitting against the cooling coils.
How long ago did you force carb? Has this keg ever poured correctly?
Overcarbed.
I have this happen all the time. I carb kegs in a different freezer than my serving freezer, and different regulator. I try to keep the temps and pressures the same in both, but if the first freezer is a little colder, or higher PSI, then when I serve I get the bubbles.
Also, this is why I don't force carb at higher temps. I got tired of the overshoot problem and quit that.
I have this happen all the time. I carb kegs in a different freezer than my serving freezer, and different regulator. I try to keep the temps and pressures the same in both, but if the first freezer is a little colder, or higher PSI, then when I serve I get the bubbles.
Also, this is why I don't force carb at higher temps. I got tired of the overshoot problem and quit that.
I'm pretty sure it's just over carbonated, not frozen.
This is the problem. You should stop doing that. That's a terrible way to carbonate. It's incredibly easy to force too much carbonation into your beer doing it this way (which you did on this one).
If you want to carb faster than the set it and forget it method (2-3 weeks at equilibrium pressure), then you can put it at about 30 psi for a day or two (without rolling it, just let it sit in the fridge!) and then drop it to the correct pressure/temperature combination for the amount of CO2 you want. Use an online chart to figure that out or this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/.
This is the problem. You should stop doing that. That's a terrible way to carbonate. It's incredibly easy to force too much carbonation into your beer doing it this way (which you did on this one).
If you want to carb faster than the set it and forget it method (2-3 weeks at equilibrium pressure), then you can put it at about 30 psi for a day or two (without rolling it, just let it sit in the fridge!) and then drop it to the correct pressure/temperature combination for the amount of CO2 you want. Use an online chart to figure that out or this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/.
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muels
Well-Known Member
I will probably continue doing it the current way. I appreciate the insight though! I figure, with a 95% success rate, I may have to de-carb one keg every 3 months. On average it will add about 3-4 days on one keg every 3 months while saving 3-4 days on every other keg. I can deal with that! If I find I'm missing my target CO2 more often I'll reassess my odds. At that point I'll try the 30 psi for a few days then set to serving pressure. I may even try it anyway just to get a feel for it!
In the process of degassing the keg as we speak. Thank you to everyone for all the advice and insight!
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