Why doesn't the hop character of my beers taste the same as commercial beers

[johnsoncurt1980]

Homebrewer for a couple years now, and for the most part pleased with my beer. Although I am satisfied, im still striving to make my next better than the last. What im focusing on right now is hop flavor/character. What I mean by that is when I make a all cascade beer it tastes very different than any commercial example of all cascade. My hops all seems muted/dull. I dont get that in your face grapefruit I am looking for. I have tried late hopping(dumping in lots of hops at flameout) then chill. I have tried hop stands as well. Both result in a similar flavor and aroma. I do dry hop as well. I am beginning to look elsewhere for my problem. What should I try next? Other source of hops, use RO water and treat with just some cal chloride and gypsum. Since my last batch I have began treating my mashes for PH as necessary.

 

[BrewWNC]

Hopback maybe?

What yeast? Do you cold crash? Bottle or keg?

Can we get a recipe?

Have you tried to clone a all cascade commercial beer and compared?

Without knowing some of the above, I'd say try a different hop supplier and type of hop (whole instead of pellet). But I'm not convinced this will have a major effect.

Maybe changing water is the way to go. May e adding a different hop variety that accents the cascade would do the trick.

 

[DSorenson]

Water chemistry will be key. Start messing with that and you will get there.

Also, many brewers use hop tea/extract after fermentation

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I do not have a hopback at this time but not opposed to getting one at some point. For yeast I tend to use 1056 frequently. I do cold crash and bottle. To help, I will post a recipe in a bit.

 

[BigPerm]

Homebrewer for a couple years now, and for the most part pleased with my beer. Although I am satisfied, im still striving to make my next better than the last. What im focusing on right now is hop flavor/character. What I mean by that is when I make a all cascade beer it tastes very different than any commercial example of all cascade. My hops all seems muted/dull. I dont get that in your face grapefruit I am looking for. I have tried late hopping(dumping in lots of hops at flameout) then chill. I have tried hop stands as well. Both result in a similar flavor and aroma. I do dry hop as well. I am beginning to look elsewhere for my problem. What should I try next? Other source of hops, use RO water and treat with just some cal chloride and gypsum. Since my last batch I have began treating my mashes for PH as necessary.

You haven't provided enough information to properly assess your problem. Start with where you live (ie which municipal water supply you're on - provide a water profile if you can). Then give a recipe of something you thought would work that didn't. Also provide technique information. For example, do you filter? Crash cool? Control fermentation temp? So many factors, including your own personal perceptions, that make it impossible to help you yet.

 

[BigPerm]

Water chemistry will be key. Start messing with that and you will get there.

Also, many brewers use hop tea/extract after fermentation

While this is true, messing with water chemistry without knowing what you are doing is recipe for disaster. Or, at least, not gaining any valuable knowledge on how to get where you're going.

For example, I live in a municipality with a fantastic water supply. Moderate carbonate/bicarbonate and fairly low sulfate. When I make hoppy beers, I cut it in half with distilled, and add gypsum to try to get up to ~ 150 ppm. A little more sulfate will enhance the bitterness perception. This will differ entirely depending on where you are.

 

[DSorenson]

While this is true, messing with water chemistry without knowing what you are doing is recipe for disaster. Or, at least, not gaining any valuable knowledge on how to get where you're going.

For example, I live in a municipality with a fantastic water supply. Moderate carbonate/bicarbonate and fairly low sulfate. When I make hoppy beers, I cut it in half with distilled, and add gypsum to try to get up to ~ 150 ppm. A little more sulfate will enhance the bitterness perception. This will differ entirely depending on where you are.

Since apparently I wasn't clear enough and no one has faith in others to do some research...

Start learning about water chemistry and your beers will improve.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Water report
Ph 8.96
Alkalinity CaCO3 108
Sodium 72
Sulfate 55
Calcium 41
Chloride 32
Hardness 9 grains CaCO3
Magnesium 13

Example recipe that didnt quite meet expectations.
cascade pale ale
6 gallons
OG 1.067
FG 1.14
45 Ibu

4.8oz acid malt
3.8oz carapils
1lb crystal 75
13.75lbs 2 row
1.25oz cascade 30min
1.25oz cascade 10 min
2.5oz at flameout and 30 minute whirlpool
2oz dry hop in secondary

Fermented in primary for 2 weeks
2 weeks in secondary dry hopped at day 4 in secondary. Cold crashed day 12-14. Bottled

 

[BigPerm]

Since apparently I wasn't clear enough and no one has faith in others to do some research...

Start learning about water chemistry and your beers will improve.

It's complicated. I'm a chemist and I don't always get it right. Just suggesting to change your water isnt that helpful.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I know its only a pale ale, so it wont be a hop bomb but relatively speaking it had very little hop aroma and flavor

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Not only is the hop character weak, my cascade doesnt taste like other cascade beers.

 

[BigPerm]

Water report
Ph 8.96
Alkalinity CaCO3 108
Sodium 72
Sulfate 55
Calcium 41
Chloride 32
Hardness 9 grains CaCO3
Magnesium 13

Example recipe that didnt quite meet expectations.
cascade pale ale
6 gallons
OG 1.067
FG 1.14
45 Ibu

4.8oz acid malt
3.8oz carapils
1lb crystal 75
13.75lbs 2 row
1.25oz cascade 30min
1.25oz cascade 10 min
2.5oz at flameout and 30 minute whirlpool
2oz dry hop in secondary

Fermented in primary for 2 weeks
2 weeks in secondary dry hopped at day 4 in secondary. Cold crashed day 12-14. Bottled

Where did your pH end up after the acid malt addition?

In general the recipe looks ok. I would personally up the dry hop, but thats up to personal preference. Also, cascade has lower acids than other hops, so you may need to increase a little more to get that big hop character you are looking for.

The biggest issue appears to be that your sulfate is a bit low. I'd add a few grams of gypsum, say 5-6, to your water. Use software to try to get into the 150ppm range. Brew the same recipe and see how it differs. You can also try to dilute with distilled a bit, which will lower the pH and reduce the carbonates.

Good luck!

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Ph was 5.43 30 min into mash

 

[BigPerm]

Ph was 5.43 30 min into mash

After the acid malt addition? That's still pretty high. 5.2 would be ideal. Try diluting with distilled water next time and bring up the sulfate with gypsum. You'll find yourself in a better range.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Appreciate all the help

 

[cjgenever]

I'd look at the water chemistry. A little gypsum can go a long way to making hop flavors pop. It is also important to have a decently fresh hop for late additions.

I use somewhat hard municipal water. Since I started adding a proper amount of gypsum I've been getting better flavor

 

[gregoreckbrews]

Other people may not have had the same experience, but I have not been able to get good hop character in my bottle conditioned IPAs. Only the keg conditioned IPAs have come out as expected. Once I had a Double IPA where half was kegged and half was bottled. The kegged half was one of the best beers I have made. The bottled half was just okay: Muddled hop aroma and flavor. Reminds me of what the OP was describing.

I'm not trying to say that you can't produce a good IPA with bottle conditioning, but I have not had success.

 

[Roundhouse]

When are you adding the gypsum? I only add it to the kettle during the boil.

 

[Homercidal]

When are you adding the gypsum? I only add it to the kettle during the boil.

Ideally you would add enough gypsum (and other salts) to the mash water, in order to get the mash pH into a range the enzymes like.

The rest of the salts needed to enhance flavor could be added to the sparge water or Boil Kettle as you see fit.

 

[Roundhouse]

I treat all of my brewing water with phosphoric acid to 5.5 before even starting. I add a pinch of Calcium Chloride in the mash just to get some calcium in the mash. I only use gypsum in the kettle for flavoring. It doesn't do much in the mash. Some of the minerals added to the mash don't fully make it to the kettle.

 

[BreezyBrew]

How fresh are your hops?

 

[negativereaction]

Maybe it's worth asking about the condition of your hops? Do you keep them nicely frozen and vacuum packed until you use them? And they're relatively new/fresh?

[Edit: Another FL guy beat me by a minute or two on this angle]

 

[cjgenever]

My water is pretty good for most brews. I add a little gypsum in the boil for my ipa's to pop the hop flavors. It's not a big difference, but it helps. I have to cut my water with distilled and adjust the chemistry in the mash for brews requiring softer water

 

[beersk]

I think the high sodium content of the water might be taking away from that as well. Generally, you don't want to go above 50ppm sodium. I'd up the sulfate as well to 100ppm or even 200ppm.

But, a lot of factors are in the freshness of your hops, as another stated. Whether they're vacuum sealed, what temp you're fermenting at, and how much you're using. I think at 1.067 OG with 45 IBU, you aren't going to get a lot of hop character there.

 

[kpr121]

I think at 1.067 OG with 45 IBU, you aren't going to get a lot of hop character there.

Agreed with this. You aren’t going to get that ‘in your face grapefruit’ with 2.5 oz of hops in the boil. I’d suggest using a dedicated bittering hop at 45 or 60 minutes. Other things to look at are decreasing the amount of crystal/specialty grains used, and/or mashing a bit lower to increase your hop to malt ratio. 1.014 isn’t really high per say, but getting down to near 1.010 would give more of a perceived hoppiness.

 

[KafkasRevenge]

Would it be crazy of me to say inspect your bottling practices? I'm assuming you are being very careful to avoid introducing oxygen into your beer post-fermentation, but oxygenation could cause a drop-off in hop flavor.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I'm pretty anal about introducing oxygen. I'm not sure how I could improve on that process. As far as hop freshness, I have wondered for awhile if I have fresh hops. I buy hops from the lhbs for each batch so I assume they are fresh as last years crop. they mostly carry hopunion. Are there packaged dates on them?

My next beer I will incorporate more water adjustments, whether starting from RO or diluting with RO I'm not yet sure. I am going to go for a higher sulfate.

I also think less crystal and lower FG is a smart idea.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

For comparison, would anyone recommend a hop supplier that I should try?

 

[cjgenever]

For comparison, would anyone recommend a hop supplier that I should try?

I've had great experiences with nikobrew. Flat rate shipping, so I buy a lot at once. Co2 and a vacuum sealer are helpful when repackaging. I use the wife's soda stream for Co2.

 

[riderkb]

Just looking at your recipe I would say that you have plenty of late hops but they are getting lost in a too-sweet beer. If a beer isn't bitter enough it won't seem very hoppy. I would switch to a high alpha acid for the bittering, mash at a lower temp, pitch more yeast, and/or oxygenate more thoroughly.


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[Clonefan94]

I'm with the others here who think you just don't have enough IBUs going. Personally, I wouldn't over think this one too much. On the recipe you posted, 45 IBUs in that beer, isn't going to give you an in your face punch. You probably have just enough to set a background to the malts. As has been said, first thing I'd try is upping the bittering hops. I really wouldn't expect what you are looking for until you get into the 60s or 70s with IBU.

I brew and Amber with a lot of crystal malt and cascade late additions in it and it comes in around 40 IBUs according to Beersmith. And it's far from what I would consider a Hoppy beer.

As riderkb said, up the bittering to accentuate the late additions.

 

[Shuznuts]

Are you using pellets or whole hops?


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[Pratty]

For me, getting the water chemistry understood made a huge difference to my pale ales and IPAs.

Now when ever i make a hoppy beer I always add enough calcium sulphate (gypsum) to get my calcium to 150ppm and sulphate to 300ppm and those hops shine right through. That amount for me on a 21lt batch is roughly 15g...10g in the mash and 5g for the sparge.

Water chem is complex and you will need to try some online calcs that give you amounts to add based do your current water profile and desired...check out bru'n water for a start.

Adding a bittering charge will help with a all cascade hopped pale ale, maybe to 15ibu for a 60min addition then just get the rest from 20m - flameout. With the amounts your dry hopping it should have given you a real good aroma.


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[grathan]

I would definitely try the RO water.

Again with some acid malt. half pound.

Gyspsum 2 tsp -> strike water + 2 tsp -> boil

I would switch out the crystal 70 malt in your recipe for all cara-pils (just so nothing detracts from the hop flavor for a test batch).

You need to up your hop amounts. 7 oz is weak. I agree with more IBU. I would try a clean bittering hop like German Magnum or even hop extract syringe (to retain a nice clean flavor in the beer letting the flavor hops stand out).

If you want in your face grapefruit, your gonna need at least 4oz just for the dry hop.

1 oz magnum 60 min

2oz cascade 20 minutes
4 oz cascade flameout
4 oz cascade whirlpool (under 190*F)
4oz dry hop.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

5 months later and I am not much closer to achieving my goal of better hop character. I have quit making 5 gallon batches until i can figure out the lack of aroma. Last fall, right at harvest I ordered several pounds of hops. I never tried leaf so I ordered all leaf of Cascade, centennial, citra, columbus, amarillo, chinook, simcoe, etc. I expected great things. I made a 5 gallon batch of all centennial. Essentially a two hearted clone, however went with 3 oz dry hop while the recipe had .5 or 1 oz. Again let down by the aroma, I went to 1 gallon batches to find out my problem. My first cascade recipe i used the equivalent of 2 oz at 1 min, 2 oz at flameout and 2 oz hopstand at 175f for 80 minutes. I though this must be enough to get a decent hop flavor and aroma. Nope after 2 weeks i tasted the beer and it was nonexistant. I dry hopped with 3 oz i the primary for a week and tasted again. Nadda. Racked off those hops and into secondary of 4oz more. Grabbed a sample after 5 days, nothing but a drying, astringent flavor but no aroma. What gives? How can the equivalent of 7oz of hops not result in anything but ridiculous aroma? I recreated the two hearted ale clone in a 1 gallon batch adding 3 oz at flameout and 3 more at 175F for 80 minutes. Dry hopped with 3 oz. Better, but still very weak. I have done several other and it seems that citra gives pretty good aroma. Each batch, I add gypsum to raise sulfate to 200-300 and ensure mash ph is 5.4-5.6. Can these hops just be aroma less. Were they picked too soon? They smell good but its amazing how little aroma I get witht the quantity I use. I even expected good aroma prior to dry hopping due to the late hopping and hop stands. Again any advice to reach my goal is appreciated.

 

[kpr121]

5 months later and I am not much closer to achieving my goal of better hop character. I have quit making 5 gallon batches until i can figure out the lack of aroma. Last fall, right at harvest I ordered several pounds of hops. I never tried leaf so I ordered all leaf of Cascade, centennial, citra, columbus, amarillo, chinook, simcoe, etc. I expected great things. I made a 5 gallon batch of all centennial. Essentially a two hearted clone, however went with 3 oz dry hop while the recipe had .5 or 1 oz. Again let down by the aroma, I went to 1 gallon batches to find out my problem. My first cascade recipe i used the equivalent of 2 oz at 1 min, 2 oz at flameout and 2 oz hopstand at 175f for 80 minutes. I though this must be enough to get a decent hop flavor and aroma. Nope after 2 weeks i tasted the beer and it was nonexistant. I dry hopped with 3 oz i the primary for a week and tasted again. Nadda. Racked off those hops and into secondary of 4oz more. Grabbed a sample after 5 days, nothing but a drying, astringent flavor but no aroma. What gives? How can the equivalent of 7oz of hops not result in anything but ridiculous aroma? I recreated the two hearted ale clone in a 1 gallon batch adding 3 oz at flameout and 3 more at 175F for 80 minutes. Dry hopped with 3 oz. Better, but still very weak. I have done several other and it seems that citra gives pretty good aroma. Each batch, I add gypsum to raise sulfate to 200-300 and ensure mash ph is 5.4-5.6. Can these hops just be aroma less. Were they picked too soon? They smell good but its amazing how little aroma I get witht the quantity I use. I even expected good aroma prior to dry hopping due to the late hopping and hop stands. Again any advice to reach my goal is appreciated.

It really seems like you should be getting aroma from what you are doing (I’d still say that other than the big dry hops addition you still have to up the overall weights in order to get a true hop bomb), but I’ll throw a couple qualifying questions that might help identify a problem:

What did you end up doing with the water? Still using tap or did you switch to RO?

The 1 gallon batch you did - you didnt mention any bittering hops additions, did you have any at all?

How long (number of days) and at what temperature were your dry hop additions? Was primary fermentation completed when you added the hops?

What yeast did you use and what was OG/FG for the two recent beers? A higher FG can tend to ‘cancel out’ the hops flavors (wouldn’t cause too much difference in aroma though). What was your mash temp?

I really feel like it’s your water, but any number of these can be contributing variables. You could do a test by doing maybe a 1 gallon extract recipe with only light DME in RO or distilled water, and keep the same hop schedule.

One last one: Have you had other highly hopped beer (home brew or commercial) recently? Maybe your sensitivity to hops has gone up (down?), and you just need to make something with like a lb of hops to satisfy your palette? I would try to nail down the other variables first before doing this so as not to ‘waste’ a lb of hops.

 

[grathan]

Also you don't mention where you got all these pounds of hops and what year they were harvested.

Also your hops scale could be off?

Also your not kegging these 1 gallon batches are you? Also what kind of headspace is in the fermenter/secondary and how stable are the temps there?

 

[BreezyBrew]

The biggest improvements that I made to the end result were the following:

- Keg Hopping. Seriously. Made a huge difference
- Fine tuning my water for pH and sulphate levels
- Masing at 150
- Getting the freshest hops I could get my grubby little hands on
- Using clean English ale yeast like 007 or US-04.

 

[mbbransc]

All my IPAs were blah-to-OK before moving to kegging. Once I started kegging, my IPAs finally tasted like commercial examples. Now I do close system transfers into my purged kegs with dry hops already in the keg. I prefer my IPAs to most commercial examples now. I finally get that hop punch in the face with a fresh pour.

IMO, bottled homebrew IPAs just can't compete. No matter how anal you are about oxygen, you can't avoid it when bottling.

 

[Sir-Brews-Alot]

All my IPAs were blah-to-OK before moving to kegging. Once I started kegging, my IPAs finally tasted like commercial examples. Now I do close system transfers into my purged kegs with dry hops already in the keg. I prefer my IPAs to most commercial examples now. I finally get that hop punch in the face with a fresh pour.

IMO, bottled homebrew IPAs just can't compete. No matter how anal you are about oxygen, you can't avoid it when bottling.

I hate to say it, but like others, I never enjoyed any of the IPAs I brewed until I started kegging. In fact, I just plain didn't brew IPAs because they never turned out good. You can be as careful as possible, but the fact is you will always get some oxygenation when bottling which will kill hop character IME. Now I adjust my water for hoppy beers, and do all my transferring in a closed C02 pressurized environment, and my hoppy beers finally live up to commercial examples.