Why does apple wine taste worse young?

[Pendragon524]

I've done a few rounds making apple wine, and C.S. Brews on YouTube has said they prefer their apple wines after giving them the chance to age for many months. I tend to agree. I have several questions, though. First, what accounts for the less-than-pleasant flavor of young apple wine (and cider, I assume)? And secondly, what does the aging process DO at a chemical level to change the flavor profile of the wine/cider? I've heard that apple-based wines are high in malic acid, and over months aging in a bottle, the beverage can undergo malolactic fermentation, resulting in a better flavor down the road. Is that correct? Thanks!

 

[bernardsmith]

All well made wines tend to improve with age while poorly made wines simply get older. But apple cider or wine seems to transform incredibly around a year after they are bottled and that is because much of the malic acids (a very harsh tasting acid) is converted to lactic acid by bacteria**. Not a chemist so I cannot be certain but I suspect that many of these bacteria are present in the fruit but the yeast you pitch and the level of sugars early on inhibits their action. That said, makers of red wine often purchase lab cultured batches of malo-lactic bacteria because they want to have far more control over what is called MLF. BUT.. BUT ... if you add sorbates to your apple cider or wine to inhibit refermentation the malo-lactic bacteria produce a compound that smells and tastes like dead geranium flowers. And you might as well dump the batch . It cannot be saved.

All that said, 71B yeast has an affinity with apples and that yeast will convert about 40% of the malic acid present to lactic acid. And so, some would say, he said, that apple cider or wine made with 71B is already going to be tasting much better than the same wine made with another yeast. But yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance, as the Showman is wont to cry.

 

[Pendragon524]

All well made wines tend to improve with age while poorly made wines simply get older. But apple cider or wine seems to transform incredibly around a year after they are bottled and that is because much of the malic acids (a very harsh tasting acid) is converted to lactic acid by bacteria**. Not a chemist so I cannot be certain but I suspect that many of these bacteria are present in the fruit but the yeast you pitch and the level of sugars early on inhibits their action. That said, makers of red wine often purchase lab cultured batches of malo-lactic bacteria because they want to have far more control over what is called MLF. BUT.. BUT ... if you add sorbates to your apple cider or wine to inhibit refermentation the malo-lactic bacteria produce a compound that smells and tastes like dead geranium flowers. And you might as well dump the batch . It cannot be saved.

All that said, 71B yeast has an affinity with apples and that yeast will convert about 40% of the malic acid present to lactic acid. And so, some would say, he said, that apple cider or wine made with 71B is already going to be tasting much better than the same wine made with another yeast. But yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance, as the Showman is wont to cry.

Thank you for this excellent information! I really appreciate it. So, in a previous batch of apple wine, I ended it by adding potassium sorbate and bottling it. Now, I didn’t add a malolactic bacteria culture. Do you think my batch is ruined, or will it still age well over the next year?

 

[bernardsmith]

That's a great question. And I am sorry but I do not make apple wine or cider enough to be able to say.. But , I would say that if you have made a small batch - 5 or a dozen bottles, that you crack open a bottle every month and taste it. Like I say a well made wine improves but a well made wine is still very good a week after you bottled it. If you made 5 ot 10 gallons then I don't know enough to say anything one way or another. My apple wines are brut dry and I don't back sweeten them so I don't stabilize them. That said, I would be nervous.. but I honestly do not know. I do know that MLF without lab cultured bacteria is OFTEN a gamble and often nothing happens because there are all kinds of processes taking place in the wine to inhibit MLF.

On your point about C.S Brews, they fly by the seat of their pants and their knowledge of wine making is about middle school - but then that is true for most people who self publish whether on paper or on the interwebs. When independent peers taste their wine and describe their faults and qualities much as if the wine was being judged for competition then I will be prepared to be less critical. Just sayin'

 

[Pendragon524]

That's a great question. And I am sorry but I do not make apple wine or cider enough to be able to say.. But , I would say that if you have made a small batch - 5 or a dozen bottles, that you crack open a bottle every month and taste it. Like I say a well made wine improves but a well made wine is still very good a week after you bottled it. If you made 5 ot 10 gallons then I don't know enough to say anything one way or another. My apple wines are brut dry and I don't back sweeten them so I don't stabilize them. That said, I would be nervous.. but I honestly do not know. I do know that MLF without lab cultured bacteria is OFTEN a gamble and often nothing happens because there are all kinds of processes taking place in the wine to inhibit MLF.

Okay, that’s good advice. I made four bottles (one gallon), so I’ll probably just make another batch and cold crash, rack several times, and then back sweeten. Still a gamble without potassium sorbate. In any case, thank you!

On your point about C.S Brews, they fly by the seat of their pants and their knowledge of wine making is about middle school - but then that is true for most people who self publish whether on paper or on the interwebs. When independent peers taste their wine and describe their faults and qualities much as if the wine was being judged for competition then I will be prepared to be less critical. Just sayin'

I’ve found them to be helpful and knowledgeable, and I appreciate their approach. But that, of course, is my experience with them, and I recognize that people can differ here. I have come to understand that C. S. Brews brings up a lot of controversy and, quite frankly, anger from various people, but I’m not looking to argue or to defend them. I’ve only got myself to defend, and I’m still new to all this.

 

[bernardsmith]

I have no bone to pick with C.S. Brews or with anyone who self publishes on Youtube... but my background is in academics and it strikes me that many (MANY) folk who have "channels" on Youtube are focused at least as much on themselves as they are on their subjects. That's fine for those looking for entertainers and entertanment (though the quality of the editing, writing, video-graphy is often at kindergarten level) but if you are looking for education then the 15 - 20 minutes might have 2 minutes of usable information and some of that is likely to be wrong and some of it is presented as "I don't know what I am doing. I have never done this before but I am about to show you how to do this" . But if that is what folk are looking for then that is what they are looking for. For me this suggests we are racing towards a culture that embraces and highlights ignorance rather than knowledge - and that suggests we are heading towards a new Dark Age ( the Middle Ages or 5th thu 15th Centuries in Europe).