Synovia
Well-Known Member
If you think your beer is better than every commercial beer, you are severely deluding yourself.
Why Do US Brewers Try To Replicate Branded Beers ?
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If you think your beer is better than every commercial beer, you are severely deluding yourself.
heywolfie1015
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There is absolutely no way at least one commercial brewery out there makes a better beer than you? C'mon, that's just silly. I've had plenty of amazing home brews, but I've had just as many amazing commercial beers. Just because someone makes a living out of selling a product doesn't mean the product is automatically bad or inferior.
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I think that many take the creators value of a product out of subjective context.
Rogue for instance. By their labels they assert that they make the best beer in the world. I, for one, find them to be un-impressive. So, do I subjectively think that I can brew better beer than Rogue? You bet your ass I do because I have yet to have anything by Rogue that I want two of.
So, is it so wrong for a creator to be convinced that their product is better than what is on market? Certainly not. It's the core to which capitalism thrives.
Rogue for instance. By their labels they assert that they make the best beer in the world. I, for one, find them to be un-impressive. So, do I subjectively think that I can brew better beer than Rogue? You bet your ass I do because I have yet to have anything by Rogue that I want two of.
So, is it so wrong for a creator to be convinced that their product is better than what is on market? Certainly not. It's the core to which capitalism thrives.
Houblon
Well-Known Member
Back when I first started brewing I tried a number of clones but soon realized that some of the beers tasted better(more hops/richer malt) than the real thing. So today I only work on 1 clone houblon chouffe, the cost of having real houblon on hand would be too much and the clone is so damn close & cheap to make.
The other beers I brew are made for our taste and if theres a special or unique beer we'll buy a case.
The other beers I brew are made for our taste and if theres a special or unique beer we'll buy a case.
OP
OP
johnnyboy1965
Well-Known Member
My HB is a lot better than any beer that is served in any pub in the West Mids.
That is a fact. I will nver be able to get the consistancy right as I only brew 5 gls at a time. I dont want to. The next brew will be totaly different.
gtpro
Well-Known Member
because if you start with a great recipe and mediocre skills, you can still produce a good beer.
brewagentjay
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna have to agree with my english friend and Gila on this one. It's called Pride....
Should be proud of your beer and if you like it better than commerical then it is better at least to you....
:rockin:
Should be proud of your beer and if you like it better than commerical then it is better at least to you....
:rockin:
heywolfie1015
Well-Known Member
"Wrong?" Absolutely not. However, is it a bit much to 100% foreclose the possibility that there might be something better out there? I tend to think so.
Remember also that "best" to you is not necessarily "best" to someone else. You can be as proud of your beer as you like; we wouldn't be on this board if we weren't. But keeping an open mind on commercial products allows you to critique your own product and compare it to what is popular with the consuming public. Just because it's for sale doesn't mean it's bad. If Sierra Nevada hadn't taken a chance in the 70s and 80s and made a better beer, most of us would still be forced to swill BMC without other options today. And I would venture a guess that SN is still one of the best American Pale Ales in the country, hands down.
I have done clones, because, starting out, I want to perfect my system and be able to brew what I want. Part of that is brewing a beer to a particular style or commercial beer. It is a challenge to get the amount of the right types of hops to balance the malt, etc.
YOU may not have any good beer near you, but in Michigan, there are several breweries that are making EXCELLENT beer. Bells, Founders, New Holland, Arcadia, Right Brain (you'd like these guys). I'm not even touching the SE part of Michigan where there are many more great breweries.
As far as cost, when I went to AG I compared the cost of 48 bottles of Bell's Two Hearted IPA to the ingredients list for making a similar beer. $1.50 per bottle of Bells (8x 6 packs, because that's how I can get it) versus $.50 per bottle of my own. I'm saving $1 per bottle, or $48 per batch to make it myself. How am I not saving money?
YOU may not have any good beer near you, but in Michigan, there are several breweries that are making EXCELLENT beer. Bells, Founders, New Holland, Arcadia, Right Brain (you'd like these guys). I'm not even touching the SE part of Michigan where there are many more great breweries.
As far as cost, when I went to AG I compared the cost of 48 bottles of Bell's Two Hearted IPA to the ingredients list for making a similar beer. $1.50 per bottle of Bells (8x 6 packs, because that's how I can get it) versus $.50 per bottle of my own. I'm saving $1 per bottle, or $48 per batch to make it myself. How am I not saving money?
MrInternet
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Wow. It must suck hardcore to live in such a beer desert. I can drive 10 minutes in any direction and find local brew on tap that puts to shame anything I will likely EVER make. If I honestly thought that every batch of beer I made was better than ANY commercial brewery, I would probably quit homebrewing... at that point, Beer is either such a simple endeavor that I've totally conquered it, or I'll never be able to enjoy another commercial brew in my life, which is a horrifying thought.
Or.... you could just have fallen prey to the mentality that many HB'ers have, which is that their beer is ACTUALLY better than any commercial. It might taste better to you, but that doesn't make it a "fact" that it's ACTUALLY better. Saying I can brew something that tastes better than Rolling Rock or Beck's is one thing... saying that I can walk into a bar with 200 beers on tap and still think my HB is superior... well, I'd have to agree that is likely delusion.
I've found that many HB'ers think far too highly of their beer... or at least, more highly than its quality should give them reason to think. It's natural with the products of love and labor... we think too highly of our own kids, our own house, things that we've made, etc. That doesn't make it fact...
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Thus proof that best and better is subjective of the beholder.
Of all the Pale ales on market, my subjective assertion is that the SN offering is the worst.
So who is right? Neither of us and both of us.
Because what is "best" to the individual is all that matters.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
How do you know its fact, and not just your personal opinion? Have you done double blind testing?
Chances are, you're letting your preconceptions influence your taste.
brewagentjay
Well-Known Member
It's a matter of pride....how do you know your the best at something you do? YOU JUST KNOW IT.....Kinda like Love...
I say have pride in your beer....someday I hope to be calling mine the best....
I say have pride in your beer....someday I hope to be calling mine the best....
Synovia
Well-Known Member
You can have pride in your beer, and not be delusional.
I make good beer and I'm proud of that. There are many breweries that make better.
OP
OP
johnnyboy1965
Well-Known Member
Long post coming up....
First somre background information on myself.
Im a chef, 45 years old and been cooking since the age of 15. Ive worked in the "Executive" role of most 3* Michelin restuarants throughout Europe. I retired last year. I now work(part time) as a Judge for the BCF ( British Culinary Federation)( Google my name).
Sorry, Ive got to go now TBC
First somre background information on myself.
Im a chef, 45 years old and been cooking since the age of 15. Ive worked in the "Executive" role of most 3* Michelin restuarants throughout Europe. I retired last year. I now work(part time) as a Judge for the BCF ( British Culinary Federation)( Google my name).
Sorry, Ive got to go now TBC
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Regardless of qualifications, number of stars, or units sold per annum. It ALL still comes to personal preference.
I have sat to table to sup fair from world renowned chefs and found the food to be absolute crap. Then gone home to have a PB&J that I thought was absolutely divine.
Is it delusional for one to prefer Skippys and welches over Beluga and Foi Gras?
Only by the onlooker who asserts that a personal opinion, pre-concieved or not, is fallable.
I have sat to table to sup fair from world renowned chefs and found the food to be absolute crap. Then gone home to have a PB&J that I thought was absolutely divine.
Is it delusional for one to prefer Skippys and welches over Beluga and Foi Gras?
Only by the onlooker who asserts that a personal opinion, pre-concieved or not, is fallable.
My beer is pretty good. I have yet to say that any of them are perfect. Either I'm not that good of a brewer, or I'm able to maintain subjectivity. I don't think there IS a perfect beer, of any style. Some of my beers have pleased me very much, and I'm proud of them. I've only made one batch that I didn't like. That doesn't make me a better brewer than the commercial brewers, though.
I've had some mediocre commercial beers, some awful commercial beers, and some fantastic commercial beers. My beer is better than the mediocre and the awful. It's better than many of the "good" beers. But to say that it's better than any commercial beers is ludicrious.
I've had some bad homebrew, too. People who have entered contests with their beer who think it's wonderful must be very disappointed in their scores. Most homebrewers think their beer would score a 45, and if often scores a 25. It doesn't matter, though, as long as they love it. I think many homebrewers think more highly of their beer than I would.
heywolfie1015
Well-Known Member
Right, and that shows why the OP's dismissiveness toward clone brewers should be tempered a bit. If you think a certain commercial brand is the best you've tasted, knock yourself out trying to brew it at home, and enjoy the process.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't.
Personal Preference is personal preference. Saying "I like my homebrew better" is completely different than saying "Its a fact that my homebrew IS better beer".
One is a subjective thing. The other involves blind taste tests by qualified judges of the style.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Not for me because I don't buy beer. I drink what I brew and I brew what I drink. But my 'cloning' doesn't fit (for example) GMB's definition of cloning...they're more like 'inspired by' brews.
You are British, so the severely damages your culinary street cred. That also damages your craft brewing credibility as well. Come over to this side of the pond, and you will find many beers that blow your beer out of the water. Many of the best microbreweries on this side of the pond brew beer to win awards in addition to selling their beer. They formulate a beer that they think tastes the best, then they price it according to the cost to make, unlike American macrobreweries where they pick their ingredients to lower cost. The craft brewers parade their beer around to different contests to gain recognition for their beer. American craft beer consumers will flock to these breweries that are highly reviewed, regardless of price. Some of these good craft breweries include Russian River Brewing Company, Bear Republic, Great Divide, Bells, Founders, North Coast, Three Floyds, to name just a couple. As good as I may be at brewing, I think it's fair to say I will probably NEVER make anything as good as Russian River Brewing company (although I feel my last American IPA compares pretty favorably to Bear Republic's Racer 5).
Have you had a Pliny the Elder?
Have you had a Dark Lord Imperial Stout?
Have you had a Hop Rod Rye?
Have you had a Dreadnaught IPA?
A Founders Kentucky Breakfast Stout?
If you haven't, you can't say your beer is better.
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Homebrewers as a group have aweful taste IME. I find threads like this funny.
HB#1: My beer is so awesome, it is the best in the world.
HB#2: No it isn't, get real. You honestly think that you brew better beer than commercial brewers?
HB#1: Yeah, I brew for me!
HB#2: blah blah blah
HB#1: blah blah blah
No one here brews beer better than the good craft brewers. If you are, why are you still in your day job? Brewing something that is great to hand out to friends is one thing, making product someone will pay money for is completely different.
I don't understand people's fixations with thinking their beer is so awesome. Get over it. Have fun with the hobby and do the best you can.
HB#1: My beer is so awesome, it is the best in the world.
HB#2: No it isn't, get real. You honestly think that you brew better beer than commercial brewers?
HB#1: Yeah, I brew for me!
HB#2: blah blah blah
HB#1: blah blah blah
No one here brews beer better than the good craft brewers. If you are, why are you still in your day job? Brewing something that is great to hand out to friends is one thing, making product someone will pay money for is completely different.
I don't understand people's fixations with thinking their beer is so awesome. Get over it. Have fun with the hobby and do the best you can.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
I think you could draw an analogy to music. Most beginner musicians start by copying other's material. It's a GREAT way to learn. Sure, the beginner COULD just start making music and claiming it to be the best music evar. They may LOVE the noises they are making but chances are they are not making great music (at least not to everbody else's ears). And they love the fact that they never actually make a 'mistake'.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Can we put this myth to bed? Seriously?
American Macro doesn't use adjuncts because they're cheap. They use adjuncts because thats what their customers wanted when the recipes were derived.
When these recipes were derived, americans had access to much more food than most of the world. We all had access to meat. Americans no longer wanted beer to be a meal. They wanted something light to go WITH their meal.
When these beers were first brewed, they were significantly MORE expensive than all barley beers, to brew, and to buy.
Another factor is the sheer size of the USA and how the distribution of alcoholic beverages varies from state to state. If I hear about an East Coast beer, I may have no choice but to brew a clone recipe, because it is only distributed in three states. There are states where limits on the ABV of beer prevents the distribution of high-gravity IPAs, Belgians, and barley wines.
slowbie
Well-Known Member
It makes me sad just thinking about this.
I do this because I can't get a lot of the beers I have grown up to like and even if I come close to the taste I am happy.
mojotele
Well-Known Member
Personal preference is great and all, and I agree that it is difficult/impossible to say which beer is "best."
But, the quoted post seems to imply that his beers are the best simply because he doesn't sell them. The act of selling beer makes the beer worse or leads to changes that make it worse. That's a very silly thing to say.
Houblon
Well-Known Member
I have some HB that was far better than some craft beers, why Hbers don't have to watch the cost of making beers or worry that the beer will only sell to a niche market.
Really? better study history alittle more, corn was used in place of malt to save money. Same for the Belgian brewers using sugar--- its cheaper than malt.
That's not what I was talking about.
American macrobrewers are focused on two things: drinkability and cost. They want a beer that doesn't offend anyone's palate. Don't like malty beer? Fine, here is a beer with just pilsner malt and it's dry as heck. Don't like hoppy beers? Fine, this beer has 7 IBUs.
With every new beer they make (say, Select 55), it's all about being able to produce it for a price where they can sell it below $5 for a six pack and have the beer taste as nondescript as possible. I have a friend that worked for ABInBev, and they were all about driving down the cost, with less concern about affecting the taste, just as long as it didn't completely change the flavor. They made one change a couple years back that they had to completely undo because it screwed things up. I know they recently installed several giant cross-flow membrane systems to recover every last drop of yeast. It's all about the bottom line for those companies. As long as a change they make doesn't change the beer enough for customers to stop buying, they will continuously drive down the cost, regardless of whether or not it is a good practice.
heywolfie1015
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Well said.
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All due respect but, I make a cheeseburger at home that is leaps and bounds better than anything available at McD's, BK, Wendy's, or Braum's combined but, in no way does that mean I wish to make a living doing it.
Furthermore, I am solicited frequently for beer purchases for parties and functions. How does that have any correlation to quality comparisons of an established commercial bnrewery?
Ha. I get what you are saying. But, I have been the route of taking a hobby and turning it into an income source and it was a miserable experience. No thank you. Even "if" I could earn a living brewing beer. at this point in my life there is no way in hades that I am starting over from the bottom. And, no matter how well received your product is, it is a an extremely rare occasion that an established brewery will turn over their tuns to anyone with little more than a homebrew recipe book.
brewagentjay
Well-Known Member
Can't we all just agree that it's a matter of taste on who's is the best, and as long as you and possibly your friends like it then gravy....
Also can we all agree saying your beer is the best is a Pride thing...
Also can we all agree that perhaps Johnyboy went a little far...
Finally can we all agree and put the orginal question to bed that nothing wrong with a clone and there are many good reasons to do so...
Lastly can we all just drink some brew and enjoy....
Also can we all agree saying your beer is the best is a Pride thing...
Also can we all agree that perhaps Johnyboy went a little far...
Finally can we all agree and put the orginal question to bed that nothing wrong with a clone and there are many good reasons to do so...
Lastly can we all just drink some brew and enjoy....
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Why do people always resort to this? McDonalds makes a specific style of cheeseburger. Do you think you make a better cheeseburger than a good cheeseburger joint? Every good cheeseburger joint?
We're talking about craft beer here, not the lowest common denominator.
Why? Why not? No reason to climb the mountain you've already climbed, yet people do it.
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Same difference. Craft/Macro beer. Craft/Macro burgers. Point is that just because someone does something well does not mean they must enter a commercial market to validate it.
The perception of excellence be it in beer or burgers is no different. either comes down to chance in mixing ingredient in a favorable manner or aggressive marketing.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Oh, I agree, but the OP is making the argument that his beer is better than ALL commercial beer. Not that its better than just Macro.
springer
Well-Known Member
These threads always go this way .... Who the hell cares? I brew what I like and buy what I like . And brewing a clone no matter who you are isn't going to taste the exact same as the original unless you use their equipment water and method of brewing. Will it taste good ?most likely, better ?maybe ,worse? again maybe.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
But we all know that statement is BS because the only way to know would be to have tried ALL commercial beers and we know he hasn't done that.
McDonalds makes cheeseburgers? I've always thought a quarter pounder with cheese is NOT a cheeseburger. It's a unique thing, it's a McDonalds quarter pounder with cheese, that's it, nothing more, nothing less (literally
). Just when you thought this thread could sink no lower...I'm here for you.
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
The operative word in my post was "good" craft beer. The beer I brew is indeed better than many commercial beers. It is not, however, in the same league as what I would consider good craft beer.
