White spots on cheddar cheese...viable?

[Ultima]

I'm really interested in harvesting some wild yeast and brewing with it, and it's not fruit season yet up here. I've noticed some white spots on the outside of a chunk of smoked cheddar and was thinking they may be brett.

They're certainly not fuzzy, and bear quite a resemblance to what's growing on the dish in this wikipedia image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aspect_de_brettanomyces_bruxellensis_sur_g%C3%A9lose_YPD.JPG

I can scrape them off of the outside quite easily, but I'm just not sure how much to scrape to pitch it into a little starter, or how to best go about doing that while avoiding too much contamination from other things.

There's an unopened block of the same kind of cheese in the back of the fridge, should I maybe wait until it starts getting spotty to open it and try to harvest from there?

Is there any reason why this absolutely could NOT be a species of brett, and I should just waste my time elsewhere?

I still have a lot of research to do, but would really appreciate any input from someone with more experience. Thank you!

 

[Nateo]

If the white spots are the result of some random infection, there is an incredibly small chance it's some sort of Brett. AFAIK, cheese cultures include various Lacto, Strepto, and Penicillium cultures. I've never heard of Brett being used in cheese production.

 

[Ultima]

I wouldn't call it completely random, as I've seen this happen on nearly every block of smoked cheddar that's been left sealed for a while. I've never heard of brett being used in cheese production either because most (all?) cheeses are made with bacteria, but I make beer and not cheese .

Could it be a result of the smoking process? I may need to look into how Tillamook smokes their cheddar. I'm still not convinced it would be a total waste of time, but like I said, I'm really just looking for information. Thanks Nateo!

 

[Nateo]

I'd call it a total waste of time, unless you have lab equipment to positively ID the bug in question. If you've seen Camembert, you've seen the white mold that is Lactococcus cremoris or lactis, which are most common for making cheddar.

If you want to make beer with them, they'll make your beer sour and funky, but not in the same way that Brett would.

 

[winnph]

I don't think it's ever a waste of time to throw something into a starter and see what happens, unless you're having to mash some grains to make your wort or something.

I do agree that it seems unlikely that cheese would harbor the kind of yeast that make tasty beer, but it might be something that would be good to add after primary fermentation is done, for some strange flavors. Maybe a cheddar cream ale?

 

[ryane]

I don't think it's ever a waste of time to throw something into a starter and see what happens, unless you're having to mash some grains to make your wort or something.

I do agree that it seems unlikely that cheese would harbor the kind of yeast that make tasty beer, but it might be something that would be good to add after primary fermentation is done, for some strange flavors. Maybe a cheddar cream ale?

I dunno if I agree with this, awhile as a joke for a friend I looked into making a beer with blue cheese cultures, after some digging I found that the molds used can produce toxins that will make you very sick, I would stay away from cheese cultures in beer

besides you want something that grows on sugars, not milk proteins

 

[winnph]

I dunno if I agree with this, awhile as a joke for a friend I looked into making a beer with blue cheese cultures, after some digging I found that the molds used can produce toxins that will make you very sick, I would stay away from cheese cultures in beer

besides you want something that grows on sugars, not milk proteins

Well I certainly wouldn't recommend using any molds for beer, just yeast and bacteria. I'm quite confident that any yeast or bacteria you might find on cheese either will not survive in your fermenting beer or will not make you sick. This is a topic that has been the subject of countless heated debates, but the basic and simple truth is that no known human pathogen survives the brewing process. This may not be the case if you let the surface of your beer get covered with mold (and I don't mean a pellicle, I mean mold), however.

I'd imagine you might find some bugs on cheese that can metabolize sugars (after all, milk does contain some sugars), or at least some other carbohydrates that Sacc doesn't do a very good job with, which is why I'd say you might want to consider adding it near the end of the fermentation, if at all. Might be able to consume any unfermentables floating around in the beer.

That said, it will probably make your beer taste nasty. But this is a hobby of experimentation, right? Trial and error -- until there's a post on here showing what happens when you add cheese microbes to beer, why assume it'll be nasty?

 

[motobrewer]

wait, aren't white spots lactose sugar crystalizing?

is it slightly crunchy? with aged parmesans i notice these a lot.

 

[ryane]

This is a topic that has been the subject of countless heated debates, but the basic and simple truth is that no known human pathogen survives the brewing process.

Its not about it being pathogenic, that would imply the bacteria/mold would hurt you on its own, its that the molds can produce mycotoxins as byproducts of metabolism, and those mycotoxins can have quite a negative effect on your CNS

 

[winnph]

Its not about it being pathogenic, that would imply the bacteria/mold would hurt you on its own, its that the molds can produce mycotoxins as byproducts of metabolism, and those mycotoxins can have quite a negative effect on your CNS

No microbe growing in fermenting beer will make you sick, either on its own or via any byproducts of its metabolism. Perhaps if you allow mold to grow on the surface of your beer for an extended period, it could produce undesirable compounds that would find their way into the beer. However, mold is pretty easy to spot, as it cannot grow in the beer/wort itself, and instead grows on the surface. And looks moldy.

I'll repeat myself again: Nothing toxic or pathogenic will live in your fermenting beer, period.

 

[ryane]

Your quite sure of this? Pennicillum roqueforti, aka blue cheese mold, can produce mycotixins that will severely harm your central nervous system, and toxins dont need to "live" they are chemicals that cause harm

Roqueforti is an extremely common spoilage fungus in silage, silage is a fermented vegetable/grass product fed to cattle.

Heres a paper with Roqueforti producing mycotoxins in wine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9131595

Add to this the fact that you have no idea what is actually growing on that cheese, and I would stay away from it.

And Im not one thats afraid to try strange cultures for fermenting, Ive brewed two gosebiers using the cultures from pickles and sauerkraut

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

No microbe growing in fermenting beer will make you sick, either on its own or via any byproducts of its metabolism.

There's a difference between fermented beer and wort and partially fermented beer. The reason why nothing harmful survives in beer is because the combination of alcohol and low ph inhibits the growth of harmful bacteria/mold/yeast. Until it reaches that point, it is a big bowl of sugar water, which is a tasty treat for all sorts of harmful critters, like e. coli. Not knowing what you have there, it could be something that produces harmful mycotoxins -- as ryane points out -- or makes you ill on its own. If you don't have some form of fermentation lowering the ph or creating alcohol then your statement won't be true.

 

[winnph]

There's a difference between fermented beer and wort and partially fermented beer. The reason why nothing harmful survives in beer is because the combination of alcohol and low ph inhibits the growth of harmful bacteria/mold/yeast. Until it reaches that point, it is a big bowl of sugar water, which is a tasty treat for all sorts of harmful critters, like e. coli. Not knowing what you have there, it could be something that produces harmful mycotoxins -- as ryane points out -- or makes you ill on its own. If you don't have some form of fermentation lowering the ph or creating alcohol then your statement won't be true.

I agree completely that there's a big difference between wort and fermenting/fermented beer, and obviously wort can be used as a medium for growing harmful microbes. If I wasn't clear on that point (and it looks like I wasn't), I apologize. As I said, I'd throw it in after (or near the end of) primary fermentation, and you'll be fine.

 

[Nateo]

There are reasons we use certain bugs to make beer, different ones for sauerkraut, cheese, salami, etc. There is some overlap, but a long time ago humans figured out which ones will make the food safe and tasty, and which ones will make you sick, or just make an awful product.

Did you read the link that Ryane posted? They inoculated post-fermentation wine and were able to grow Penicillium that produced mycotoxins. So just being done with fermentation doesn't mean that you can't grow harmful bacteria.

 

[winnph]

There are reasons we use certain bugs to make beer, different ones for sauerkraut, cheese, salami, etc. There is some overlap, but a long time ago humans figured out which ones will make the food safe and tasty, and which ones will make you sick, or just make an awful product.

Did you read the link that Ryane posted? They inoculated post-fermentation wine and were able to grow Penicillium that produced mycotoxins. So just being done with fermentation doesn't mean that you can't grow harmful bacteria.

I'd be interested to read the full article, to see whether the mold produced levels of the toxin that were anywhere near the minimum safe thresholds. As the abstract notes:

However, the types of toxins as well as toxin concentrations varied a great deal, depending on culturing medium or culturing time.

There's an article there also about another toxin that can be produced by mold on grain and grapes, which can persist in the final product (but almost never above minimum thresholds):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17716764

And, once again, you are talking about mold, which I dare say almost any brewer would pretty quickly spot and realize shouldn't be growing on his beer.

 

[winnph]

Here's an interesting article on pathogens and toxins in beer:

http://beer.winnphillips.com/Other/pathogens.pdf

That's actually a chapter from a collection of articles on beer, which I found when I googled pathogens in beer. Rather than linking to the full book, I decided to excerpt this chapter, but I won't host it for long on my server, since I'm not keen on getting threatening letters from the book publisher's lawyers.

 

[Nateo]

And, once again, you are talking about mold, which I dare say almost any brewer would pretty quickly spot and realize shouldn't be growing on his beer.

Exactly! The OP wants to throw the fuzzy white mold growing on his cheese into his beer. I said it wasn't a good idea, and it looks like you agree with me.

 

[winnph]

Exactly! The OP wants to throw the fuzzy white mold growing on his cheese into his beer. I said it wasn't a good idea, and it looks like you agree with me.

Actually, the OP said:

They're certainly not fuzzy, and bear quite a resemblance to what's growing on the dish in this wikipedia image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aspect_de_brettanomyces_bruxellensis_sur_g%C3%A9lose_YPD.JPG

 

[Nateo]

Winnph: You do know that the Penicillium variants used in cheese making are molds, right? Camembert isn't fuzzy, and it's lousy with mold. The fact that whatever is growing on the OP's cheese is growing on his cheese like mold does, tells me it's probably mold.

But if it makes you happy, I take back my fuzzy comment, and I think you should definitely throw whatever mold or bacteria you want in your beer and it will taste like rainbows and unicorns.

 

[Ultima]

...The fact that whatever is growing on the OP's cheese is growing on his cheese like mold does, tells me it's probably mold.

Interesting debate in here, and a bit of reason on both sides. However, I'm not sure why you're so adamant about calling it mold when it very well may not be. This is vacuum-sealed cheese. I can agree that it may not be wonderful for making beer, but I disagree that you automatically label it mold. I can take pictures for you if you're interested. All this thread has done is make me wish I got my degree in micro instead of neuro!!

Nateo, in your sig I noticed you have a wild something bottled, where/how did you collect those bugs?

winnph, thank you for posting that pdf! I snagged a copy so feel free to save your bandwidth now

 

[Nateo]

I really don't see how anything but some sort of fungus could be growing on your cheese. It's either mold or yeast. I really doubt Brett would grow in colonies like that on cheese in your fridge.

I made a wit using wild yeast harvested from peach skins. I got peaches from an orchard, peeled off the skins in quarters, and put them in quart jars with wort diluted to around 1.030. Three of the jars turned green/gray and smelled awful. One of them stayed golden colored and smelled like beer. I dumped the good one in a 1L starter to grow more yeast, and then used that to ferment a small batch of wit.

It actually tasted pretty boring, mostly like the Wyeast 2565 Kolsch. A little fruity/yeasty but nothing too weird. It behaved pretty strangely, forming lots of pea sized clumps in the bottom of the fermenter.

Along the way, I got a low-level acetobacter infection. I drank most of them quickly, but the few I saved for more than 3-4 months got a little vinegary.

 

[motobrewer]

so....it ISN'T lactose coming out of solution?

then what are the white spots on my aged goudas/parmesans?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I really don't see how anything but some sort of fungus could be growing on your cheese. It's either mold or yeast. I really doubt Brett would grow in colonies like that on cheese in your fridge.

I made a wit using wild yeast harvested from peach skins. I got peaches from an orchard, peeled off the skins in quarters, and put them in quart jars with wort diluted to around 1.030. Three of the jars turned green/gray and smelled awful. One of them stayed golden colored and smelled like beer. I dumped the good one in a 1L starter to grow more yeast, and then used that to ferment a small batch of wit.

It actually tasted pretty boring, mostly like the Wyeast 2565 Kolsch. A little fruity/yeasty but nothing too weird. It behaved pretty strangely, forming lots of pea sized clumps in the bottom of the fermenter.

Along the way, I got a low-level acetobacter infection. I drank most of them quickly, but the few I saved for more than 3-4 months got a little vinegary.

That sucks. I used peaches from the store to harvest wild yeast. I got some sacc or sacc-like yeast, pedio and brett. At first it was like a very bland saison. After 4-5 months it developed an excellent brett flavor. Now it is like a very bretty saison.

 

[cervezarara]

Motobrewer- it looks like the white spots might be calcium lactate. A Google search led me to "Handbook of Food and Beverage Fermentation Technology edited by Y. H. Hui, Lisbeth Meunier-Goddik, Ase Slovejg Hansen".