Which of these yeasts would you recommend for a sparkling apple cider?

[TasunkaWitko]

Any guidance would be appreciated:

http://www.eckraus.com/search?q=yeast+for+hard+cider

Thanks -

Ron

 

[Newsman]

Danstar Nottingham should do fine. But you'll need to be sure to mix the hard cider with priming sugar before you bottle.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Thanks, Newsman - that I can do!

 

[CJ1]

I like champagne yeast for all ciders. Red Star Pasteur Champagne works wonderfully.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Thanks, CJ1 - my intention is to make several gallons of cider, so I am more than willing to try a few different kinds of yeast.

 

[Newsman]

I normally make the "Upstate Mike's Caramel Apple Cider" that can be found here on the forum. It calls for Danstar Nottingham. I'm doubling the sugar on my latest batch to try and get a bit more alcohol, so I switched to champagne yeast. Have to see if it works any better than Notty.
Oh, and I keg, so I force-carb.

 

[mattmmille]

I have made several ciders in the last year, most with crab apples or crab apples blended with other apples and a few with straight, store bought cider. Safale US-05 has been my "go-to" yeast. One I did with Edinburgh Ale yeast was very good. Champagne will take it VERY dry.

 

[70ls1nova]

I made it with Champagne yeast last year and it turned out too dry for me. Like really dry wine with champagne carbonation. We did drink it all, but i will try nottingham this year. Looking for more of a hard cider taste that apfelwein.

 

[ericbw]

I have made several ciders in the last year, most with crab apples or crab apples blended with other apples and a few with straight, store bought cider. Safale US-05 has been my "go-to" yeast. One I did with Edinburgh Ale yeast was very good. Champagne will take it VERY dry.

When you use US-05 or Edinburgh (WLP028?), what is your FG usually? Nottingham, Coopers, and champagne yeast always end up dry for me. Looking for less attenuation.

 

[RegarRenill]

There aren't any complex sugars involved, so attenuation means almost nothing. Any of those yeasts will take an OG of 1.06-1.07 down to 1.000 or less. Most yeasts, even bread yeast, will handle up to 10% ABV, or an OG 1.076, with ease. A better tactic would be to taste until it gets to a FG you like, rack off the sediment, add priming sugar, and bottle. When it's carbed enough(use of a PET soda bottle is recommended), pasteurize and enjoy!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Thanks for the continuing replies, everyone.

I guess I should have specified that I'm looking for a fairly sweet cider with good carbonation; having said that, I'm willing to try just about anything!

 

[Yooper]

There aren't any complex sugars involved, so attenuation means almost nothing. Any of those yeasts will take an OG of 1.06-1.07 down to 1.000 or less.

Sometimes. But ale yeast will often stop a bit short of dry. My last cider used S04, and the FG was 1.004. It's still dry, but not as dry as when I use wine yeast (which will go to .990!). Of course, I like dry cider so I don't sweeten it either way, and 1.004 still is crisp and tart.

 

[mattmmille]

When you use US-05 or Edinburgh (WLP028?), what is your FG usually? Nottingham, Coopers, and champagne yeast always end up dry for me. Looking for less attenuation.

I try to get down to around 1.004 to 1.008 and the bottle. I find that there is enough sugar and yeast to for a S-04 or US-05 to carb the cider without back sweetening or creating bombs...although, pasteurizing is a good idea, to be safe.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, everyone - sorry for the late reply on this; it has been an eventful week as I have been tending to my first-ever beer brew, a Chocolate Maple Porter from Brooklyn Beer Shop:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/brooklyn-brew-shops-chocolate-maple-porter-tips-advice-492568/

So based on the replies, if I am looking for a sparkling cider on the sweet side, I should avoid the champange yeasts and possibly the nottingham yeasts. If I am reading correctly, an ale yeast might possibly be a better choice?

Question: would anyone consider this yeast for achieving the goals I am persuing?

http://www.eckraus.com/lalvin-wine-yeast-type-71b-1122.html

Regarding this:

There aren't any complex sugars involved, so attenuation means almost nothing. Any of those yeasts will take an OG of 1.06-1.07 down to 1.000 or less. Most yeasts, even bread yeast, will handle up to 10% ABV, or an OG 1.076, with ease. A better tactic would be to taste until it gets to a FG you like, rack off the sediment, add priming sugar, and bottle. When it's carbed enough(use of a PET soda bottle is recommended), pasteurize and enjoy!

Regnar, thanks for the information here. I know enough to recognise that it is valuable information, but I don't quite know enough yet to put it into practice and understand the contexts and subtleties. Either that, or my brain is making it more complicated than it is, which is possible!

 

[Pommeau]

I am partial to French farmhouse ale yeasts. I use White labs WLP072 - French Ale Yeast (sweet mind you 1.018 range)
Very tasty.

 

[podz]

I am thinking of switching to 885 Zurich lager yeast for my ciders. My new place has a large basement with perfect lager temperatures.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Question: would anyone consider this yeast for achieving the goals I am persuing?

http://www.eckraus.com/lalvin-wine-yeast-type-71b-1122.html

71-B will metabolize some of the malic acid in the juice, which will result in a lower acid "softer" cider. Malic acid is part of what makes an apple taste like an apple. Think of the difference in flavour between a Granny Smith apple & a Red Delicious apple; the cider you make with 71-B will be more like the Red Delicious apple. Not exactly the same as that, but that's the best analogy I can come up with at the moment. 71-B will also take it dry. Some people might like a "soft, hard cider." While I've never actually had a "soft" cider, I have had "soft" apple wine; the taste reminded me of a wet dishrag. I didn't like it & my 1st thought was "I can make better than this." I usually use ale yeast (Nottingham, S-04, S-05) in my cider/graff. Try using the 71-B in a 1 gallon batch & see if you like it, you can always make more.
Regards, GF.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Update -

My parents recently took a trip to Billings (which, at 250 miles away, has the closest LHBS); since Lalvin Wine Yeast 71B-1122 was the last one that I discussed with my dad, this is the one that he brought home, so I'm hoping that it will do the job with a reasonable amount of success. Does anyone have any suggestions that might counter some of the potential deficiencies mentioned above? Adding sugar, perhaps?

My current plan is to quit planning this project and dive into it, making two 1-gallon batches of cider with this yeast. Following Podz's lead from his article, I'll use store-bought apple juice (side question: should I buy apple JUICE or CIDER?) for this first attempt and get the stuff into the fermenters by this weekend. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll ferment for 2 (possibly 3) weeks, then bottle with some honey or maple syrup in order to induce carbonation.

I am considering adding (stick) cinnamon, clove and star anise flavours; does anyone have any advice as to how much to add for a 1-gallon batch?

 

[bernardsmith]

Sometimes. But ale yeast will often stop a bit short of dry. My last cider used S04, and the FG was 1.004. It's still dry, but not as dry as when I use wine yeast (which will go to .990!). Of course, I like dry cider so I don't sweeten it either way, and 1.004 still is crisp and tart.

Yooper, Why would ale yeast not bring home a totally brut (dry) cider? If the starting gravity was around 1.050 why would an ale yeast have any greater difficulty in converting all the sugar to alcohol than any wine yeast? I wouldn't ask ale yeasts to work on fruit wines or meads but I start those around 1.090 (about 12% ABV) but for 6 or 7% ABV why would SO-4 or SO-5 or Nottingham conk out early?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, Why would ale yeast not bring home a totally brut (dry) cider? If the starting gravity was around 1.050 why would an ale yeast have any greater difficulty in converting all the sugar to alcohol than any wine yeast? I wouldn't ask ale yeasts to work on fruit wines or meads but I start those around 1.090 (about 12% ABV) but for 6 or 7% ABV why would SO-4 or SO-5 or Nottingham conk out early?

I don't know for sure, but suspect that ale yeast is not as good at simple sugars like fructose as wine yeast- but certainly my last batch with S04 (with nutrients, but not added sugar) started at 1.048 or so (can't remember exactly) and finished at 1.004, perfectly clear and beautiful.

 

[ericbw]

I don't know for sure, but suspect that ale yeast is not as good at simple sugars like fructose as wine yeast- but certainly my last batch with S04 (with nutrients, but not added sugar) started at 1.048 or so (can't remember exactly) and finished at 1.004, perfectly clear and beautiful.

I agree, I don't think it's about ABV either, but just that it leaves something unfermented. Laziness, perhaps, and it just drops out.

If there was just one that quit at about 1.010, I think that would be perfect.

 

[podz]

I wouldn't recommend EC-1118 and I likely won't buy it again, either. I used this yeast to make my otherwise normal cider recipe and two bad things happened:

1. Needed a blowoff hose for 3 days. I've never needed a blowoff hose for cider before, and this was even with 2 litres of headspace in my demijohn. Very messy yeast.

2. Took 10 days to finish fermentation (although it started in like 60 minutes). This is unacceptably long for an 8% ABV cider. My normal yeast finishes this job in 7 days.

 

[mattmmille]

I will have to check my notes, but I think I had been bottling after fermenting with s-04 and/or us-05 when I reached 1.004 to 1.008 range and the carbs were good and no bombs, gushers or pasteurizing. And I used a British Ale Yeast for a still cider of crab apples, Pink Cripps , cinnamon, clove and a little molasses and it stopped at something over 1.02 and is delicious...especially if you like it fairly sweet. No back sweetening on any of these.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Based what I'm reading here, it looks like I would be better off getting a different yeast and saving the 71B-1122 for some other project. English ale yeasts seem to be better than champagne yeasts for the result that I am trying to achieve, so my choices are evidently narrowed down to:

Nottingham
M02 (touted as a cider yeast)
M07
S04
Possibly S05

Since the subtle differences between these yeast escape me at my current level of experience, I'll likely go with the most-recommended of the group.

Thanks -

Ron

 

[ericbw]

It sounds like some people have been getting slightly higher final gravities (which means sweeter) with S-04. I would go with that, since I usually get slightly higher FG with it. Remember that *slightly higher* isn't exactly sweet in this case. Instead of finishing at .998, it finishes at 1.002. That's still pretty dry.

Champagne yeast takes it all the way dry, and usually pretty fast (not sure why it would take 8 days - that sounds like something was wrong).

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Your advice hasn't steered me off-course yet, Eric ~

I'll add S04 to my next order....

Thanks!

 

[podz]

Champagne yeast takes it all the way dry, and usually pretty fast (not sure why it would take 8 days - that sounds like something was wrong).

I said 10 days for 8% ABV. That's not fast. 7 days for 8% cider with champagne yeast is par for the course on which I usually play.

"All the way dry" being an ambiguous term that lacks measurement, let's just assume that you mean 0.990.

I've never had a cider finish with a gravity lower than 0.998. This batch that I just made with EC-1118 started at 1.063, finished at 1.002 after the 10-11-12 day measurements and tastes like water. Ambient fermentation temp was a steady 19C (66F).

 

[Legume]

Red star cote des blancs wine yeast will leave a very slight residual sweetness and will not strip out the apple aroma when fermented cool ( in the 60s). This is my favorite cider yeast in the winter, when I can keep my fermentation temps cool.
In the summer when its hot, I make funky dry cider with belgian ale yeast.

 

[paperairplane]

I have a cider working with S-33, about 11 days in. Was 4 gallons juice, 1 gal local UV pasturized cider. Still really cloudy.

Not worried, going to let it sit until mid nov, kill the yeast, add some AJ concentrate and keg.

 

[Newsman]

I have a cider working with S-33, about 11 days in. Was 4 gallons juice, 1 gal local UV pasturized cider. Still really cloudy.

Not worried, going to let it sit until mid nov, kill the yeast, add some AJ concentrate and keg.

You might try cold-crashing when you're about ready to add the AJC. That'll help drop the rest of the stuff out of solution.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

A friend who went to our closest LHBS (in Billings, 250 miles away) came home with 3 packages of Red Star Premier Cuvée yeast (ironically, in blue packages), saying that this type was recommended. I'll give it a shot this weekend.

Questions:

a) For my first attempt, I am going with store-bought apple product. I haven't found apple JUICE that has no preservatives; however, I was able to find natural cider that is pastuerized, but doesn't seem to have preservatives. As I recall, this is good, since pastuerized is fine, but the preservatives kill yeast. Please correct me if I am wrong. I will eventually move on to using my own juiced apples, but that's another story.

b) The yeast packages say that each package makes 5 gallons of cider. My batches are going to be ONE gallon. Should I pitch 1/2 the yeast packet, or 1/5?

c) I read the excellent article written by @podz, where he mentions adding sugar to boost the ABV. I am not really considering doing this for my first attempt, but if I change my mind, what's a good amount to add to a ONE GALLON batch to boost the ABV a little? Or would the final cider taste better without?

d) Is there any advice or information that I should know specific to using this yeast?

Thanks in advance for all assistance -

Ron

 

[rekoob]

Great questions. I'm kind of in the same boat as you are, just starting out, although I have done a gallon of apple w/sugar for my first batch. I used 1118 and it finishd dry, was like an apple wine is what the wife said. Didn't mind it and drank it up but she didn't really like it.

I have 4 one gallon batches going right now, two are apple w/S-04, one cherry w/1118 and one blackberry I think w/1118.

Each of these have different amounts of sugar added.

I haven't read anything about using sugar as far as how much to use and one another thread I didn't really get any answers to my questions on how much sugar would leave some sweetness behind when the yeast was done, due to the ABV killing if off.

So, I'm just giving it a shot to see how things go. The two apples I have going right now are most likely done and they finsihed up pretty dry or at least the sample I tried last weekend seemed pretty dry. I'm still getting slow airlock activity so I haven't thought about doing anything with them yet, it's been 19 days in primary.

Will be watching this thread for more info and hope to get a final product the wife likes (a bit of sweetness) before I attempt anthing larger than a gallon.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Great comments, rekoob - If I learn anything, I'll be sure to post about it.

Addendum to my post above: I am not interested in back-sweetening at this time, I simply want to make some cider and learn about what I'm doing through the experiences. Having said that, I had planned on using honey as a priming sugar for bottling, but recently read about folks using frozen concentrated apple juice as a priming sugar instead. This is something I might look into a little bit, going forward.

 

[mattmmille]

A friend who went to our closest LHBS (in Billings, 250 miles away) came home with 3 packages of Red Star Premier Cuvée yeast (ironically, in blue packages), saying that this type was recommended. I'll give it a shot this weekend.

Questions:

a) For my first attempt, I am going with store-bought apple product. I haven't found apple JUICE that has no preservatives; however, I was able to find natural cider that is pastuerized, but doesn't seem to have preservatives. As I recall, this is good, since pastuerized is fine, but the preservatives kill yeast. Please correct me if I am wrong. I will eventually move on to using my own juiced apples, but that's another story.

b) The yeast packages say that each package makes 5 gallons of cider. My batches are going to be ONE gallon. Should I pitch 1/2 the yeast packet, or 1/5?

c) I read the excellent article written by @podz, where he mentions adding sugar to boost the ABV. I am not really considering doing this for my first attempt, but if I change my mind, what's a good amount to add to a ONE GALLON batch to boost the ABV a little? Or would the final cider taste better without?

d) Is there any advice or information that I should know specific to using this yeast?

Thanks in advance for all assistance -

Ron

Those ARE good questions! I haven't used that yeast, so I don't really know its alcohol tolerance. I would recommend finding the Red Star website and seeing if they have that information there...I would imagine they would. You will also want to know the fermentation temperature range and make sure you are able to deal with that. That information may be right on the packet. If you hit that ABV limit before all the sugar is gone, you will have a still cider, but should not have to backsweeten or pasteurize. If you want to carbonate, you will need to bottle and carb when the flavor is where you want it and pasteurize before it overcarbs. It can be tricky, but you can do it!

It never hurts to pitch more yeast rather than fall short, but a half of a package would be plenty. If you have an accurate scale, you could go less or just estimate 1/3 maybe. You don't have to be terribly exact.

As for the sugar and alcohol, you may have to play with a calculator tool...Brewersfriend.com has a good one...and see where your ABV will land at various starting and stopping specific gravities (OG/FG --original gravity and final gravity). When I have used my own juice, I have generally added sugar of some sort...white, brown, honey, molasses. If you aren't following a recipe, I suggest adding a cup or so at a time until you get close and figure it out (and keep notes for next time!). Most commercial ciders (and the one you found sounds good...typical) are going to start in the 1.05 to 1.06 range. Where they finish will depend on the yeast.

I made a cider the end of this Summer with crab apples and Pink Cripps apples. I added a little molasses, a couple cinnamon sticks and a few cloves, and pitched Edinburgh Ale yeast from White Labs. (I was shooting for an FG of 1.09, but I think I wound up at 1.113...oops! So, it stopped at somewhere over 1.02 and is sweet and has kind of a caramel apple flavor, but it has a really high ABV and is dangerously easy to drink! (And I left it still and didn't have to pasteurize.)

The experimentation is fun...don't take too seriously. Usually, someone will be willing to drink what you made...people's tastes vary enough that sweet/dry, carbonated/still...whatever...somebody will like it.

 

[Roadie]

I am not interested in back-sweetening at this time, I simply want to make some cider and learn about what I'm doing through the experiences.

What's wrong with backsweetening, especially if it finishes drier than what you want? I made my first cider not long ago using Wyeast 4783 (Sweet White Wine). The cider I bought at my local orchard was 1.045 OG and unfortunately this yeast took it to 1.000 for a 6% ABV cider as I added no sweetener of any kind to boost alcohol. SWMBO likes semi-sweet cider and this was too dry for her so I added FCAJ a little at a time to the 5 gallons I had kegged until it hit the spot where she liked it, otherwise the non-backsweetened cider would have been here for a long time.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, Roadie -

I'm not claiming that there's anything at all wrong with back-sweetening; it's just that I have made ZERO cider, so as I begin and learn the process, I want to start basic and work my way into more-involved concepts and procedures. Heck, for all I know, I might LIKE really dry cider. One way to find out, right?

It seems logical at the beginning that my first cider be simply apples and yeast - this will introduce me to the process and will also give me a base-line for comparison when I go on to adding sugar before, or on to back-sweetening etc. Plenty of time to tweak, but I want to start as basic as possible in order learn and to have a basis for comparison etc.

 

[Roadie]

Hi, Roadie -

I'm not claiming that there's anything at all wrong with back-sweetening; it's just that I have made ZERO cider, so as I begin and learn the process, I want to start basic and work my way into more-involved concepts and procedures. Heck, for all I know, I might LIKE really dry cider. One way to find out, right?

It seems logical at the beginning that my first cider be simply apples and yeast - this will introduce me to the process and will also give me a base-line for comparison when I go on to adding sugar before, or on to back-sweetening etc. Plenty of time to tweak, but I want to start as basic as possible in order learn and to have a basis for comparison etc.

The nice thing about kegging cider is you can try it at whatever gravity the yeast takes it to, but if it's too dry for your liking you can backsweeten a little at a time until you hit your sweet spot. It's not an all or nothing product when packaging this way.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

The nice thing about kegging cider is you can try it at whatever gravity the yeast takes it to, but if it's too dry for your liking you can backsweeten a little at a time until you hit your sweet spot. It's not an all or nothing product when packaging this way.

I like that concept ~ will look into it as I get down the road a bit!

 

[jsiddall]

It sounds like some people have been getting slightly higher final gravities (which means sweeter) with S-04. I would go with that, since I usually get slightly higher FG with it. Remember that *slightly higher* isn't exactly sweet in this case. Instead of finishing at .998, it finishes at 1.002. That's still pretty dry.

Champagne yeast takes it all the way dry, and usually pretty fast (not sure why it would take 8 days - that sounds like something was wrong).

I just finished a batch of cider using S-04 and it ended at 1.001. I also did a batch with EC-1118 that ended at 0.997. So yes, very slightly sweeter. Finding a yeast that finished at 1.005 or so would be nice. Not sure such a thing exists.

 

[JF_HBrews]

Sometimes. But ale yeast will often stop a bit short of dry. My last cider used S04, and the FG was 1.004. It's still dry, but not as dry as when I use wine yeast (which will go to .990!). Of course, I like dry cider so I don't sweeten it either way, and 1.004 still is crisp and tart.

I like S04 for cider also. I've tried S05/001 also with not difference in FG but I feel like there is a little more of the apple flavor left with the S04. I haven't used a yeast labeled as cider yeast or a wine yeast for cider. So I can't compare those.