Which hops go well together?

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Hi,

For my next brew, im wanting to use more then one hop type to give more complex hop flavour. Last time I used just "NZ Hallertau ", 3/4 to 1oz 60min and 3/4 to 1oz 15min. While this beer was decent, the Hallertau taste was strong and kinda overpowering.

Im thinking some hops go well together and some don't?

Am still deciding on a "dark brown" ale in similar style to Newcastle, or try another IPA.

If I go IPA Im thinking...

1xMuntons Medium Malt Extract Can
1xMuntons Light Extract Can
X? amount of crystal malt (have 500g or so)
Safale s-04 yeast
And ??? Hops

Or if a darker ale Im thinking...

1xMuntons Dark Malt Extract
1xMuntons Medium Malt Extract Can
X? amount of chocolate malt maybe? Don't have yet.
Safale s-04 yeast
And ??? Hops

Here are they pellet hops available at HBS...

Hop Pellets Fuggle 100gm
Hop Pellets NZ Hallertau 100g (possibly avail)
Hop Pellets Pacific Gem 100g
Hop Pellets Southern Cross 100g
Hop Pellets Sticklebract 100g
Hop Pellets Styrian Goldings 100g

Iv only used hops a couple of times, and crystal grain once, so kinda guessing how much would be needed. And thoughts on the hops?

 

[RichBrewer]

I've heard it said that Simcoe and Amarillo are a great combination.

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

I've heard it said that Simcoe and Amarillo are a great combination.

Thanks - though only have the hops mentioned above. I think they are NZ ones, so it might be a stab in the dark if they aren't overseas?

 

[RichBrewer]

Thanks - though only have the hops mentioned above. I think they are NZ ones, so it might be a stab in the dark if they aren't overseas?

oops! Sorry. I guess I should pay better attention!

 

[Stratotankard]

Kiwi,

I'm not very familiar with the southern varieties you listed, but according to http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/PDFfiles/LearnMore/Substituting Hops.pdf it looks like your Fuggles and Styrian Goldings are used as substitutes for each other, so they should probably go well together. It also looks like the Pacific Gem is a big bittering hop with a woody flavour similar to the Fuggles or Styrians, so I would gather they might make a good pairing of bittering/aroma hops. I haven't tried them, so take that with a grain of salt. I also couldn't find any info on the others you listed. perhaps you can get more info from your LHBS as to their characteristics.

Cheers

Terje

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Kiwi,

I'm not very familiar with the southern varieties you listed, but according to http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/PDFfiles/LearnMore/Substituting Hops.pdf it looks like your Fuggles and Styrian Goldings are used as substitutes for each other, so they should probably go well together. It also looks like the Pacific Gem is a big bittering hop with a woody flavour similar to the Fuggles or Styrians, so I would gather they might make a good pairing of bittering/aroma hops. I haven't tried them, so take that with a grain of salt. I also couldn't find any info on the others you listed. perhaps you can get more info from your LHBS as to their characteristics.

Cheers

Terje

Thanks for your feedback! You have convinced me, I'll go for Fuggles and Styrian Goldings Pellet Hops. From memory, I think the Pacific Gem was like 15%!! Knowing me I'd probably spill some in and end up with a extremely bitter beer.

If I go with the Fuggles, and Styrian Goldings Hops, does it actually matter what % they are? I could just use more of one and less of the other to get a balance?

Thanks again!

 

[Stratotankard]

Use the higher AA% as your bittering and the lower as aroma, generally. Fuggles are listed as being used as bittering and aroma, but the styrians are only aroma. I did a bit more research and it turns out Styrians are descended from Fuggles. Also looks like the Southern Cross (11-14%) might make a good bittering hop with either styrians or fuggles as aroma. If you go for the IPA they might be a good choice for an early addition, just to get a bit more bitterness than you might get with just fuggles/styrians.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide to make.

Terje

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Use the higher AA% as your bittering and the lower as aroma, generally. Fuggles are listed as being used as bittering and aroma, but the styrians are only aroma. I did a bit more research and it turns out Styrians are descended from Fuggles. Also looks like the Southern Cross (11-14%) might make a good bittering hop with either styrians or fuggles as aroma. If you go for the IPA they might be a good choice for an early addition, just to get a bit more bitterness than you might get with just fuggles/styrians.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide to make.

Terje

Thanks again for your help! Iv just been to my LHBS and purchased a lot of stuff. Could you/someone please advice how many hops/hop times with these following ingredients:

1.8kg Light LME (Muntons can)
1.5kg Amber LME (BlackRock can)
up to 0.5kg Crystal Grain
Safale US-05 Dry Yeast

100g (3.52oz) NZ Southern Cross Alpha 12.0 Pellet Hops
100g (3.52oz) NZ Fuggle Alpha 6.9 Pellet Hops

Im thinking an IPA type beer should work well with these? I know the crystal grain doesn't have a number, but its from Brewcraft a major homebrew supplier in NZ so wanna give it a go.

Any guidance with the hops will be a big help!

 

[sittingturbo]

I had a beer the president of my home brew club brewed with all Pacific Gem, it was very good. So I don't know what to use with it, but it can stand alone IMO.

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

I had a beer the president of my home brew club brewed with all Pacific Gem, it was very good. So I don't know what to use with it, but it can stand alone IMO.

Oh maybe I shud'v gotten those hops. Can anyone recommend how many hops to use for the above post? Thanks.

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Has anyone got a good recipe?

Note the batch size is a NZ standard 23L, or 6.1 US Gal. Iv converted the below to US measurements...

3.97lbs Light LME
3.3lbs Amber LME
1.1lbs crystal grain (crushed)
safale us-05 yeast

And I have this much of the hops...

(3.52oz) NZ Southern Cross Alpha 12.0 Pellet Hops
(3.52oz) NZ Fuggle Alpha 6.9 Pellet Hops

Am thinking use the higher one as the bittering and the other as the aroma... any thoughts???

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Anyone???

How does this look as a half wild guess.... "Yooper" have you got any ideas?

Batch size is 23 litres or 6.1 us gallons.

3.97lbs Light LME
3.3lbs Amber LME
0.5 to 0.75lbs crystal grain (crushed)
safale us-05 yeast

60min = 1.58oz Southern Cross 12% Pellet Hop (bittering or aroma hop)
30min = 1.59oz NZ Fuggle 6.9% Pellet Hop (aroma hop)
15min = 1.01oz NZ Fuggle 6.9% Pellet Hop (aroma hop)

I did this hop conversion based on a recipe on the "howtobrew website". Should the 15min hops be at 5min perhaps? Will this recipe be too hoppy? Also the Fuggle is meant to be just used as aroma hop, is 30min too long?

Thanks

 

[Yooper]

Well, first of all, you're a little low on extract to make an IPA. In a 6.1 gallon batch, 7.3 pounds of extract will give you 1.043 OG. So, you're going to hop based on that. You asked if it'll be too bitter- well, I LOVE IPAs so I can't imagine such a thing, but that's why it's important to keep it in balance. There is a chart around here (I think it's in Biermuncher's gallery) with a good idea of IBU/OG ratios. I'll look for that and try to post it below, so you can see the balance between malty and hoppy.

Ok, the next thing to mention is that I've only used fuggles once, and styrian goldings once, and never used any of the other hops, so I'm guessing as to what I would do with them. But, here goes:

In 2.5 gallons of water (after steeping the .5 pound of crystal and removing), bring 3.3 pounds extract to a boil. Add:
1 ounce Southern Cross 60 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles 20 minutes
Add the additional extract at 15 minutes (take off heat first!) and stir well. Bring back to a boil and add:
.50 ounce fuggles 10 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles 5 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles at flameout.

Now, this depends on a couple of things- the size of your boil for one. For example, if you add all the extract at the beginning to 2.5 gallons of water and boil, your beer will be light in hopping (due to the poor hops utilization of higher gravity wort) at only 26 IBUs. If you boil the 3.3 pounds of extract in 2.5 gallons of water, and then do all the hopping and add the additional extract later, your IBUs will be 42 which is about right for an IPA. So, that's what I would do. Let me know if this isn't clear. It's clear to my mind, but my words don't always come out right!

Oh, and thanks for changing the measurements to pounds and ounces for me!

 

[Yooper]

Found this in Superiorbrew's gallery:

You can see that a beer with more malt (higher SG) and take more hops (IBUs). What I've posted is not really a balanced recipe- it's way more to hops than malt, which is a typical IPA for me. But, if you want to not worry about too bitter, you can reduce the Southern Cross hops to .75 ounce. That will help!

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Well, first of all, you're a little low on extract to make an IPA. In a 6.1 gallon batch, 7.3 pounds of extract will give you 1.043 OG. So, you're going to hop based on that. You asked if it'll be too bitter- well, I LOVE IPAs so I can't imagine such a thing, but that's why it's important to keep it in balance. There is a chart around here (I think it's in Biermuncher's gallery) with a good idea of IBU/OG ratios. I'll look for that and try to post it below, so you can see the balance between malty and hoppy.

Ok, the next thing to mention is that I've only used fuggles once, and styrian goldings once, and never used any of the other hops, so I'm guessing as to what I would do with them. But, here goes:

In 2.5 gallons of water (after steeping the .5 pound of crystal and removing), bring 3.3 pounds extract to a boil. Add:
1 ounce Southern Cross 60 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles 20 minutes
Add the additional extract at 15 minutes (take off heat first!) and stir well. Bring back to a boil and add:
.50 ounce fuggles 10 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles 5 minutes
.50 ounce fuggles at flameout.

Now, this depends on a couple of things- the size of your boil for one. For example, if you add all the extract at the beginning to 2.5 gallons of water and boil, your beer will be light in hopping (due to the poor hops utilization of higher gravity wort) at only 26 IBUs. If you boil the 3.3 pounds of extract in 2.5 gallons of water, and then do all the hopping and add the additional extract later, your IBUs will be 42 which is about right for an IPA. So, that's what I would do. Let me know if this isn't clear. It's clear to my mind, but my words don't always come out right!

Oh, and thanks for changing the measurements to pounds and ounces for me!

Thanks! You'v made it very clear to me. I will add the extract at seperate times like you suggested. I too enjoy hoppy beer (NZ have Epic Pale Ale with 13 diff hops!). My only fear is making it undrinkable!

I think most of my beers are about 1.040-43. For some reason US 5gal is 18 litres. All Australian/NZ homebrews like Coopers, Brewtec etc are made up to 23L for some unknown reason? "http://www.coopers.com.au/homebrew/makeBeer.php?cid=5".

So our 23L is approx 6.1gal. Makes it hard to follow recipes based on 5gallons!

Iv heard that adding hops at "flameout" can make grassy flavours? So as soon as I add hops I take off heat and start cooling?

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Damn this is fustrating me now... another site says this on a Castlemaine Perkins LAGER can "Makes 40 Pints, 23 ltrs, 5 gallons approx", giving the impression that 23L IS 5 gallons.

Oh iv got it now!!!

23 litres (5 Imperial Gallons / 6 US Gallons). Hmm what gallons do you guys use, imperial or US?

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Confusing my self here, I'd say historically when 5 gal imperial was used, we went to litres which was 23L. So 23L was 5gal (imperial). Now you use US Gallons, and the conversion is wrong. So 23L is now 6gal (us).

Anyway back to the beer. I said my brew was 6.1gal (us), its actually 6gal, that wont effect anything? Am going to follow the recipe, adding the 3.3lbs extract first and the 3.9lbs after 45min. That charts very useful to, thanks. Will be good for future reference making different styles.

Since my OG isn't OVERLY high, will it effect the beers taste eg less malty? Since we're using less hops accordingly? The alc % should still be 4.7-4.9% if FG 1010 after priming?

One more thing, does a LME light give the beer the same gravity as a LME Dark?

Sorry for all my questions, and thanks for your help

 

[Yooper]

The difference between 6.1 gallons and 6 gallons is about negligible, so don't worry about it. (And, since I'm in the US, I use US gallons)

The only difference between light and dark extract is the color. Oh, maybe a very slight difference in taste, but not a difference in the gravity points.

You're beer won't be terribly malty at 1.045 or so- but that's fine if you're making a hoppy beer anyway. For more malt flavor, you'd need some more malt extract. You can see from the chart how "balance" is figured. I like to lean towards hoppy, especially for a pale ale or IPA. Some beers, like English bitters, would be hopped differently, of course.

The ABV should be in the neighborhood of 4.3% ABV if you are at 1.044, and finish at 1.010- (OG-FG) x 131= ABV. So, (.044- .010) x 131= (.034) x 131= 4.43 % ABV.

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

The difference between 6.1 gallons and 6 gallons is about negligible, so don't worry about it. (And, since I'm in the US, I use US gallons)

The only difference between light and dark extract is the color. Oh, maybe a very slight difference in taste, but not a difference in the gravity points.

You're beer won't be terribly malty at 1.045 or so- but that's fine if you're making a hoppy beer anyway. For more malt flavor, you'd need some more malt extract. You can see from the chart how "balance" is figured. I like to lean towards hoppy, especially for a pale ale or IPA. Some beers, like English bitters, would be hopped differently, of course.

The ABV should be in the neighborhood of 4.3% ABV if you are at 1.044, and finish at 1.010- (OG-FG) x 131= ABV. So, (.044- .010) x 131= (.034) x 131= 4.43 % ABV.

Oh I used...

= OG-FG / 7.46
= 1044-1010 / 7.46
= 34/7.46
=4.56% (+0.5 for priming)
= 5.06%

Hmm....

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

I think the 0.5% is too high for priming anyway, but thats what the Coopers guide says. Another book said add 0.3% for priming. They are 75omL bottles though.

So in theory I could have made an IPA with black LME, with the same hops, and it would taste very similar?

So to a degree, the LME colour you use doesn't have a major effect on the beer? Its more the grain you add? EG: crystal or chocolate? So if you didn't use any grain, you are only controling the hoppyness, and plain maltiness, like on your graph?

 

[Yooper]

4 ounces of priming sugar in 5 gallons would add .002 points to your OG. Really not very much at all. But you can add it in if you need to be precise.

The darker LME doesn't really have much of a different taste to me, beyond some carmelization. I always used pale and then used steeping grains for color and flavor in all my recipes. Without the grains, it's still beer, but flatter tasting (not carbonation wise, but blander) without complexity.

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

Ok, thanks. One last question...

Awhile ago I asked a recipe and ya gave me this one...

5 gallon batch
6.6 pounds of LME
.75 ounces of hallertau Alpha 8.6 60 minutes
.50 ounces of hallertau Alpha 8.6 15 minutes

Your OG should be 1.047

The OG was also only 1036, FG was 1008., as I used a 6gal batch. I also probably used 0.75oz at 15min instead. Can you please work out the hoppyness? It seems v.high to me. Its only 2.5 weeks in the bottle though.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, thanks. One last question...

Awhile ago I asked a recipe and ya gave me this one...

5 gallon batch
6.6 pounds of LME
.75 ounces of hallertau Alpha 8.6 60 minutes
.50 ounces of hallertau Alpha 8.6 15 minutes

Your OG should be 1.047

The OG was also only 1036, FG was 1008., as I used a 6gal batch. I also probably used 0.75oz at 15min instead. Can you please work out the hoppyness? It seems v.high to me. Its only 2.5 weeks in the bottle though.

What size boil did you do?

 

[Kiwi_Jonno]

What size boil did you do?

The boil size was about 2.3 (us gallons). It was 6.6 lbs total LME, 3.3lbs was added at 60min, the other at 15min. Note, I used 0.75 at 15min instead, and at least 0.75 at 60min. Batch size was 6 us gallons. Thanks


5 gallon batch
6.6 pounds of LME
.75 ounces of hallertau 60 minutes
.50 ounces of hallertau 15 minutes

Bring 2.5 gallons of water to a boil (US gallons- I don't know other measurements!) and remove from heat and add one can of extract, stirring until dissolved Bring to a boil again, and when when boiling, start your timer for 60 minutes. Add first addition of hallertau. After 45 minutes of boiling (15 minutes left), add the second hallertau hops and remove from heat and add the second can of extract. Stir well, so it doesn't scorch on the bottom, and return to heat. Boil for 15 minutes then cool. Top up with water to 5 US gallons.

Your OG should be 1.047, FG should be around 1.012 IBUs 28

 

[Yooper]

That comes out to 28 IBUs- not very bitter at all. I'd let it age a bit to smooth out, and it'll bet better!