Where to learn about grains?

[hilljack13]

Did a search on grains and found where a member posted a link to NB that had some good info. I want to get into making my own recipes later down the road. Mostly interested in creating Marzen/Oktoberfest, Festbier, any German lager, and Christmas Ales.

I know its easy to look at the plethora of recipes, but I would like to find some resources that explain why a certain grain(s) and amount is used. Also, what about all those numbers and how to use them when selecting a grain?

 

[Sammy86]

You need to get yourself some books like:

Designing Great Beers: The Ultimate Guide to Brewing Classic Beer Styles https://a.co/d/6EWyDaw

Mastering Homebrew: The Complete Guide to Brewing Delicious Beer (Beer Brewing Bible, Homebrewing Book) https://a.co/d/8qRhnov

And

Radical Brewing: Recipes, Tales and World-Altering Meditations in a Glass https://a.co/d/3W0hI9O

Just to name a few of my favorites.

Good luck!

 

[hilljack13]

You need to get yourself some books like:

Designing Great Beers: The Ultimate Guide to Brewing Classic Beer Styles https://a.co/d/6EWyDaw

Mastering Homebrew: The Complete Guide to Brewing Delicious Beer (Beer Brewing Bible, Homebrewing Book) https://a.co/d/8qRhnov

And

Radical Brewing: Recipes, Tales and World-Altering Meditations in a Glass https://a.co/d/3W0hI9O

Just to name a few of my favorites.

Good luck!

Probably my location, but the tiny url's didn't work. Still able to search Amazon and find them.

 

[hout17]

Also How To Brew 4th Edition by John Palmer.

Good luck on your journey.

 

[hilljack13]

Also How To Brew 4th Edition by John Palmer.

Good luck on your journey.

Have a previous version but never got down to seriously reading. Might have to check the new version out.

 

[uweschmitt]

I'm more the APA/IPA guy and I learned sth bout grains by starting with SMASH recipes (same yeast, always centenial hops), 100% base malts (pilsener, weyerman pale malt, ...) and after I got some impression about what base malts are contributing I started adding other malts in lower amounts (4-5%) : crystal malts in different colors, biscuit / victory / amber, chocolate, etc....

Keep it simple. When you start with complex grain bills you won't learn what malt contributes what.

 

[hout17]

Have a previous version but never got down to seriously reading. Might have to check the new version out.

He covers grains exceptionally well and what all of those numbers mean, and he has a chapter on developing your own recipes.

 

[hilljack13]

I'm more the APA/IPA guy and I learned sth bout grains by starting with SMASH recipes (same yeast, always centenial hops), 100% base malts (pilsener, weyerman pale malt, ...) and after I got some impression about what base malts are contributing I started adding other malts in lower amounts (4-5%) : crystal malts in different colors, biscuit / victory / amber, chocolate, etc....

Keep it simple. When you start with complex grain bills you won't learn what malt contributes what.

Awesome, sometimes I know I overthink things. Going to follow your advice. I had already looked at Weyerman.

 

[Bobby_M]

Books really don't do it in my opinion. I've read most of them. Get on Briess, Weyermann, Crisp, Simpson, websites and read all the descriptions and check out the flavor wheel graphics. Study recipes and look for commonalities. Get the grain in small bags from vendors that sell by the ounce. Chew. Steep. Sip. Write.

 

[hout17]

Books really don't do it in my opinion. I've read most of them. Get on Briess, Weyermann, Crisp, Simpson, websites and read all the descriptions and check out the flavor wheel graphics. Study recipes and look for commonalities. Get the grain in small bags from vendors that sell by the ounce. Chew. Steep. Sip. Write.

I agree with you in that you need to get on those websites and taste the grains. However, I've always believed though in anything that you do that having a solid foundation to start from can be very beneficial like understanding how to read the spec sheets that those different malt companies provide.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree with you in that you need to get on those websites and taste the grains. However, I've always believed though in anything that you do that having a solid foundation to start from can be very beneficial like understanding how to read the spec sheets that those different malt companies provide.

Yeah, but pictures... chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.weyermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/MaltAromaWheel_Wort_Download.pdf

 

[uweschmitt]

Awesome, sometimes I know I overthink things. Going to follow your advice. I had already looked at Weyerman.

I was surprised how good Weyermann pale malt and centennial alone fermented with an neutral ale yeast taste.

Disclaimer: I'm living in Switzerland and almost all malt I can buy is from Weyermann.

 

[uweschmitt]

What also helps to "understand" malts: chew them and taste the wort when lautering, finally see what from this flavor carries to the final beer. Strong hops and expressive yeasts might overshadow this.

 

[mac_1103]

Plenty of people who post recipes tell you why they use particular malts. So reading lots of recipes is another way to increase your understanding of what different grains bring to the table.

 

[Protos]

Marzen/Oktoberfest, Festbier, any German lager

For these, you don't need an expertise in many shades of grains. The 3 German styles you mention have been traditionally made just from 1 or 2 malts. Fairly often you may see "Octoberfest" recipes with up to 12 malts, but those are just fancy postmodern "artsy interpretations" of the real thing.

There's a very noble rule of thumb among some traditional-inclined homebrewers, that if you're tempted to throw in more than three malts into your mash, you need to reevaluate your recipe and if, after that, you're still feeling you really need them, then you must provide (to yourself) some well-grounded reasons to get a clearance (from yourself) for using them. Pity, such an approach is less popular now than it deserves to be.

Kitchensink beers Christmas Ales are a different thing, of course.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I want to get into making my own recipes

Mastering Homebrew includes ideas, concepts, and processes for creating and understanding recipes. (+1 to @Sammy86 for mentioning the book earlier). Currently, Mosher writes articles for Craft Beer and Brewing. Also, check out Mosher's web site for a free preview / sample of some of his books.

Beyond How to Brew, 4e (+1 to @hout17), Palmer has been writing articles recently for Beer and Brewer (link).

Basic Brewing Radio (link) has been running a series on recipe development with multiple guests. Follow the guests to their web sites / videos / ...

Learn to understand flavor wheels (+1 to @Bobby_M) for malts, hops, and yeast.

Hot steep method (link) can be used to explore a variety of malts side-by-side. Back in 2018-ish, my (now defunct) home brew club did this for a range of American and English crystal malts. Consider combining hop steep method with chewing on some kernels.

"Dry Hopped *** *****" (link) may be the "short and shoddy" "understanding hops" equivalent of Hop Steep Method. I did this once with a number of hops with different flavor wheels.

In addition to SMaSH (+1 to @uweschmitt), with "constrained" recipe design, there is "brewing on the ones". And +1 to @Protos for noting that "every ingredient should have a purpose".

BJCP and Brewers Association competition guidelines can be used to read about the differences between similar styles (e.g. American Amber vs Red IPA vs "Double Red"). Note that the BA competition guidelines are published every year.

I read a lot of good things about "Mean brews" (video channel); but have no first hand experience. There's also a "Perfectly Average" series somewhere (maybe @VikeMan can help?)

Simple Homebrewing has a chapter on "simple recipe design" and offers recipe templates for a number of styles.

Josh Weikert's "Make Your Best ..." series at Craft Beer & Brewing.

 

[Witherby]

I really like Gordon Strong’s Modern Homebrew Recipes. Every recipe I have brewed from that book has turned out great and he gives detailed formulation notes for each recipe explaining why he chose each ingredient and then another detailed description of variations with other ingredient choices and how they would change the beer.

 

[MaxStout]

Try SMaSH brewing on a small scale. Get some 1 gal glass jugs and airlocks. Buy a couple pounds each of some different base malts and make several 1 gal batches. Use the same hops and some fairly neutral yeast. A packet of US-05 can be divided up among 5 or 6 of these. Ferment, bottle, and compare.

 

[AlexKay]

Good advice here. Try lots of different grains, and chew everything you try. (Chew small amounts of roasted malts, chew Carapils carefully, and don’t chew oats with husks on.)

Weikert gets a mixed reception around here, but I’ve found his “Make your best…” recipe series to be very helpful, in that he tells you why he’s adding each ingredient, and what he hopes to get out of it.

 

[Witherby]

Weikert gets a mixed reception around here, but I’ve found his “Make your best…” recipe series to be very helpful, in that he tells you why he’s adding each ingredient, and what he hopes to get out of it.

Every English beer recipe from Weikert has Munich malt and every German beer recipe has Maris Otter. I’m sure his recipes make good beer, but I would rather have a traditional recipe. Several hundred years by two of the great brewing nations shouldn’t be ignored.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Weikert's claim to fame before his Make Your Best series is having medaled (1st?) in each BJCP style. He's not a traditionalist at all, never claims to be, but each of the beers of his that I've made has been delicious.

I've since moved on to more accurate recipe sources, but you can't discount the value of a reliably tasty recipe set to the beginner brewer. Especially when it comes with writeups with the reasoning behind each choice.

Back to browsing SUABP...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[English beers, German beers] I would rather have a traditional recipe

What resources (books / web sites / ...) have you found useful for a local perspective on those styles of historical beers?

 

[Protos]

Probably Witherby would suggest different sources (there's lot of them!), but for me the ultimate publications on the subject are the following:

For English beers, the SUABP (Shut Up About Barclay Perkins by Ron Pattinson) blog, mentioned by DBhomebrew right above

For German beers (in English), books on Germanic historical styles by Krennmair.

You can hardly go more traditional than that without working in archives yourself. When you acquaint yourself well with those sources, you see that those nice and pretty modern homebrewing manuals and style guides don't disclose, erm, the entire truth on the diversity and classification of traditional styles. Also, you see that much of factoids you have taken for truth from those pretty books and friendly brewing forums aren't as much true as you used to think.
If you're into traditional authentic beers, the learning curve may be kinda steep.

 

[kevin58]

Books really don't do it in my opinion. I've read most of them. Get on Briess, Weyermann, Crisp, Simpson, websites and read all the descriptions and check out the flavor wheel graphics. Study recipes and look for commonalities. Get the grain in small bags from vendors that sell by the ounce. Chew. Steep. Sip. Write.

I dunno... Mastering Homebrew by Gordon Strong with his easy to understand graphs and charts helped me a ton.

 

[hilljack13]

Yeah, but pictures... chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.weyermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/MaltAromaWheel_Wort_Download.pdf

View attachment 824232

I specifically looked at Weyermann because of the type of beers I like. Got hooked on German beers when I lived in Stuttgart. I did see the diagram, just haven't looked too in depth yet.

 

[hilljack13]

Probably Witherby would suggest different sources (there's lot of them!), but for me the ultimate publications on the subject are the following:

For English beers, the SUABP (Shut Up About Barclay Perkins by Ron Pattinson) blog, mentioned by DBhomebrew right above

For German beers (in English), books on Germanic historical styles by Krennmair.

You can hardly go more traditional than that without working in archives yourself. When you acquaint yourself well with those sources, you see that those nice and pretty modern homebrewing manuals and style guides don't disclose, erm, the entire truth on the diversity and classification of traditional styles. Also, you see that much of factoids you have taken for truth from those pretty books and friendly brewing forums aren't as much true as you used to think.
If you're into traditional authentic beers, the learning curve may be kinda steep.

Thanks, Protos! I'll have plenty of time next year when I am "off the clock". I hope to get a good idea from some books and forums, but I understand my own practice will need to get refined on its own.

 

[hilljack13]

Just wanted to say thanks again. I've been on other forums for different topics and reasons, but the responses from this family has been nothing short of amazing! I have learned a tremendous amount in only a few weeks.

 

[MaxStout]

For traditional German/Austrian styles, there's lots of good info in this book.

 

[Witherby]

Probably Witherby would suggest different sources (there's lot of them!), but for me the ultimate publications on the subject are the following:

For English beers, the SUABP (Shut Up About Barclay Perkins by Ron Pattinson) blog, mentioned by DBhomebrew right above

For German beers (in English), books on Germanic historical styles by Krennmair.

You can hardly go more traditional than that without working in archives yourself. When you acquaint yourself well with those sources, you see that those nice and pretty modern homebrewing manuals and style guides don't disclose, erm, the entire truth on the diversity and classification of traditional styles. Also, you see that much of factoids you have taken for truth from those pretty books and friendly brewing forums aren't as much true as you used to think.
If you're into traditional authentic beers, the learning curve may be kinda steep.

I have been a daily reader of SUABP for over 10 years and own many of Ron's books, so that is definitely a must read for me. Ron's recipes don't always make the most exciting beers, but the knowledge gained on the history of how beers were brewed (including German beers) is invaluable.

Here's an example from Weikert: Recipe: This One Time In England Ordinary Cask Bitter

It calls for EKG at 60 minutes and flameout and then Fuggles for flameout and dry hop. If you read Ron's blog where he has analyzed thousands and thousands of brewing logs from English breweries over 200 years, there probably isn't a single example of EKG for bittering and Fuggles for dry hop. EKG was the premiere hop and saved for late additions and dry hops and Fuggles were used for bittering. That's just one example and a total nitpick, but one that drives me absolutely crazy!

I totally agree that you have to taste the grains and read the descriptions (I love the Weyermann website) to really get to know your ingredients. But it is hard to evaluate malts in a beer if you 10 different malts! So like @Protos said, German recipes usually had 2 or 3 malts, and sticking to simple traditional recipes will help you evaluate the malts.

Mostly I trust people who have visited the old school breweries and talked to the brewers and have had the beers fresh on location. That's why I find Jeff Alworth's The Secrets of Master Brewers to be very reliable and helpful.

And by and large, Craft Beer and Brewing magazine is a great resource. Totally worth the subscription, which also gets you access to back issues.

And then ultimately you have to decide what you want and value. Some people want to win competitions. Some people want to brew for friends. Some people want to be "authentic." I want to brew with traditional methods and ingredients and I like to drink (not sip) my beer. Many beers that win competitions might not be great for drinking a session of pints or a couple of liters in a Biergarten. Keep it simple and have fun!

 

[Protos]

That's why I find Jeff Alworth's The Secrets of Master Brewers to be very reliable and helpful

I may confirm that. One of the best and most informative from the modern books. Contains tips and insights you never find in other books or forums.

And then ultimately you have to decide what you want and value

That's the main thing, I think. When taking up a serious hobby, one is better to be aware of his motivation behind that. Yachts? To feel me strong and in control of the winds. Horses? To feel me dominating and in control of the directions. Chicks three times younger than myself? To feel me irresistible and in control of my you-know-what.
Beers? There could be dozens of possible motivations which, consequently, define the scope of your brewological interests and the resulting "product line" of your home brewery.

 

[Protos]

EKG was the premiere hop and saved for late additions and dry hops and Fuggles were used for bittering

That's a great example of the clash between the so called "common wisdom" and the real-life practice. Yes, theoretically we know from forums and books that EKG is superior to Fuggle and must be used later in the boil. However, those real English brewers knew their hops not only by the variety, but also by terroir and vintage and also by many other qualities. No doubt, the Fuggle in the case documented here was preferred to EKG not without a reason. Why? We'll never know. Freshness? Vintage? Anything else? Thery didn't explain that in their brewing records.

Ron's recipes don't always make the most exciting beers, but the knowledge gained on the history of how beers were brewed (including German beers) is invaluable.

A good point. It well illustrates the topic of motivations and priorities. Recreating my traditional brews to a tee I well underdstand that I might brew a myriad of probably tastier and smoother modern recipes. Hazy Imperial Pumpkin Oyster Vanilla Citra Pastry Sour Kveik Pale Stout, yummm!
If my hobby was just about beer, I might simply go and buy crates of tasty fancy beers with no added hassle. But my motivation is to surround myself with tangible articafts of the better epoque that's gone (and also to add a bit of European nostalgic flair to the Land of Infidels where I mostly reside); and beer is just a small part of that. Noone produces such beers anymore, there's nowhere to buy most of them for any money. And here my Hobby comes to resque... It well might be that my 1865 XXXK is probably tasting not as marvelous as the said Sour Stout, but hey my motivation is to pretend for a while I'm a gentleman, not a hipster