When using fresh liquid yeast why should I make a starter?

[br3wme]

I've brewed probably half a dozen beers using whitelab's liquid yeast (all several months before the use by date) and I've never had a problem yet I constantly hear people advocate making a starter. I've always had vigorous fermentation within 36 hours. What's the advantage?

 

[HumulusHead]

For lower og beers I always think pitching one vial is fine. Same with the smack packs. People will always argue against that point though.

But i would definitely say if your brewing a higher og beer, say over 1.05, using a starter would be good.

I've never had a problem around the 1.05 range though either.

 

[rupert130]

A starter will step up the number of viable yeast cells to a desired pitch rate. 36 hours is a long lag time for an ale 12-18 hours is more normal at a proper pitch rate. A shorter lag allows less time for other microbes to gain a foothold in your unfermented wort. If you experience no off flavors and you like the end result, I say keep doing what you're doing.

 

[j1n]

To make more yeast and store some for later.

 

[MattyIce]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381969/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[JonM]

You usually need more yeast than there is in one package. Plus, over time, yeast cells die so there are fewer and fewer cells the further you get from the manufacture date. A starter makes sure you have the correct amount of yeast. That avoids premature stalling and off-flavors from stressed yeast. You also get a shorter lag time.

 

[kombat]

The bottom line is, "pitch rate." As long as you're pitching the proper number of viable yeast cells, it doesn't matter whether you got there by pitching multiple yeast packs, made a starter, or re-using yeast slurry. A starter is simply a cheaper way to get to the required cell count than buying multiple packs. That's it, that's all.

One pack/vial of yeast is not normally enough for a "proper" pitch rate for a normal O.G. (>= 1.040), normal-size (5 gallons) batch, so people who care about things like proper pitch rate need a way to get more yeast into that wort. Since homebrewers are generally cheap buggers, we make starters instead of just buying more yeast.

If you're happy with the way your beer is turning out, then keep doing what you're doing. 36 hours is a long lag time, and you're definitely underpitching, but if you like the result, why change anything? As great as it may be, your beer could be better, but if you don't care, then don't change.

 

[ZebulonBrewer]

This is relevent to your interests:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

Very good stuff, but consider the limitations of the test, and that he used a yeast that is purported to very vigorous and not as sensitive as others.

I would say follow the instructions, and don't use a single vial for beers with OG over 1.060. Also, those vials and packs are expensive, and if you don't mind the expense of some fridge space, some mason jars, and a flask, you can get multiple beers out of that $7.00 yeast.

 

[solbes]

I would say try making starters for your next 3 brews and compare vs vial only pitches. Then you have your own data set. I would be surprised if you determined that starters were not beneficial.

I would be further suprised if you thought starters added a lot of work to the brew. In my 4.5 hours to make a brew, starters add maybe 30 minutes with only 10 minutes of actual attention required. By washing and storing fresh yeast in the fridge for 2 more brews, you divide that time and cost by 3.

 

[Beezer94]

+1 to trying it out and see for yourself if you notice a difference.

Water and yeast aren't as publicized and sexy as the latest designer hop or malt, but they can be the difference between okay beer and being as good as (or better than) what you can buy.

 

[joshesmusica]

The package will tell you how much the yeast can handle. I think it's usually around 1.055 or so in 5 gallons of wort. Maybe 1.050.
As you could see in the test linked above, for that size batch there might not be a difference as far as flavors go, but the big thing for me is time. Lag time and how long before I can package specifically.

 

[kombat]

The package will tell you how much the yeast can handle. I think it's usually around 1.055 or so in 5 gallons of wort. Maybe 1.050.

Keep in mind that that only holds if the pack is fresh from the factory, and 100% viable. Even then, according to industry-standard pitching rates, it would only be enough yeast for a batch with an O.G. of 1.025.

According to Mr. Malty:

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort.

Using that calculation, a 5 gallon batch of 1.055 wort would require 220 billion cells of ale yeast, or 440 billion cells of lager yeast. Pitching a single pack of ale yeast - even if perfectly 100% viable - would be underpitching by 120 billion cells, or 54%. With lager yeast, you'd be underpitching by 340 billion cells, or 77%. These numbers get even worse as the pack ages.

You'll still end up with beer; I just prefer to adhere to the optimal pitching rates as determined by experts on the subject.

 

[joshesmusica]

Keep in mind that that only holds if the pack is fresh from the factory, and 100% viable. Even then, according to industry-standard pitching rates, it would only be enough yeast for a batch with an O.G. of 1.025.



According to Mr. Malty:







Using that calculation, a 5 gallon batch of 1.055 wort would require 220 billion cells of ale yeast, or 440 billion cells of lager yeast. Pitching a single pack of ale yeast - even if perfectly 100% viable - would be underpitching by 120 billion cells, or 54%. With lager yeast, you'd be underpitching by 340 billion cells, or 77%. These numbers get even worse as the pack ages.



You'll still end up with beer; I just prefer to adhere to the optimal pitching rates as determined by experts on the subject.

I completely agree. But there's even differing opinions by the experts right now. I usually make sure there's enough according to mr. Malty as well, but there's gotta be a reason that white labs tells us that one vial is good up to a certain amount and certain date. I would rather assume that they're experts on their own product. And it doesn't make any business sense to suggest under pitching. If homebrewers are getting off flavors by following their instructions, then it's not likely they'll keep buying the product. Not to mention that it makes more sense for them to tell you to but two vials.
But, as for recommendations to newer brewers, I would say use a starter. If sanitation isn't great couple with a long lag time, that's not gonna be fun at all.

 

[socratesbrewing]

+1 to trying it out and see for yourself if you notice a difference.

Water and yeast aren't as publicized and sexy as the latest designer hop or malt, but they can be the difference between okay beer and being as good as (or better than) what you can buy.

I think this perception is changing.

 

[bragona71]

when I first started the old man at the LHBS said to always pitch 2 viles of yeast, I didn't know why at the time I just did what he said. I tried to go cheap one time and pitch 1 in the same beer I made previously and the difference was huge! So now I have learned to make a starter from one vile, crash it, split the starter in two keep one in the fridge for future brew and make a starter from the other half for next one(then step it up to 2l). It takes a week to get it all done but saves money, I also wash my yeast from fermenter and get 3-4 more brews from each batch. I only do 2 generations of yeast then start over.its been working for me

 

[LesIsMore]

but there's gotta be a reason that white labs tells us that one vial is good up to a certain amount and certain date. I would rather assume that they're experts on their own product. And it doesn't make any business sense to suggest under pitching. If homebrewers are getting off flavors by following their instructions, then it's not likely they'll keep buying the product. Not to mention that it makes more sense for them to tell you to but two vials.

I've heard an interview with Chris White from White Labs address this. If I remember correctly, he basically said that when there's a newer brewer who doesn't necessarily have his sanitation down solid, he would prefer them to just pitch the vial and not mess with a starter and risk contamination.

 

[midfielder5]

... If homebrewers are getting off flavors by following their instructions, then it's not likely they'll keep buying the product..

A bit of a nitpick but just pitching a vial is not the full WL instructions. It says to pitch at 70* until fermentation starts, then drop the temperature of your FV;
or, if a faster ferm start is desired, to make a starter.

IMO White Labs implies on the label that the yeast need to get their cell counts up.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

One of the nice things about starters is you can get a good general "estimate" of what your pitch rate will be. For beers that are very heavily yeast driven (for example Belgian and German styles, particularly Hefeweizen) you want to underpitch (generally) to excentuate that styles yeast characteristics.

I am brewing a dunkelweizen with the 3068 Weinhepstephan yeast that's reported to be one of the best for the big banana flavor when you underpitch and ferment warm. I have a package with a manufacture date in Februrary so I am going to do a starter tonight of about 1.5 liters. The rough estimate would suggest I am starting with 45 billion yeast cells in the package and I am getting close to 141 billion cells with the starter. So instead of pitching 25% of the "required" cells I am closer to 70%.

Both would make the beer, who knows maybe pitching the pack by itself would be good. But at least I have numbers I can write down in my recipe book tomorrow after I pitch the yeast. If I can get that giant banana punch I am hoping for, I know that I want to hit the 70% each time and I can adjust malts/hops after that.

 

[Gavin C]

Biology aside

Financially, making starters if large can mean never having to buy the strain again nor ever having to harvest slurry (No big deal either. I do both)

• Make a big starter
• Keep some for future brew
• Pitch remainder

It means you can build up a bank of yeast in the fridge for future brews.

I was put onto the big starter idea by reading Brulosophy.com @Brulosopher is a member here and his blog is one of the best there is, I reckon. He in turn has a link to a good starter calculator for doing just that.

 

[Natdavis777]

Jamil touches on this very topic with some good info on one of the recent BrewStrong podcasts. Yes, a single vial or smackpack will easily ferment/attenuate 5 gal of wort (1.050 +/- .010) but in the end, flavor is what can suffer.

As stated, the longer the shelf life of yeast, the lesser number of actual yeast you are pitching. Even if pitching 100b cells in 1.050 wort, the yeast can still produce stress-related off flavors.

In our realm, its easy to underpitch, but difficult to overpitch. By accommodating an adequate pitch rate, you ensure a reduced lag time, but more importantly, getting a clean tasting beer. I make a starter for every beer (been doing so for the last 2 years with improved results). Unless Im using Brett and purposely want to stress that particular strain to give me a characteristic Brett flavor.

If you are happy with your beer, then by all means keep on keeping on. I just wouldnt assume that bc the beer is reaching its FG, that a starter isnt required.

 

[RM-MN]

Just playing devils advocate here:
Jamil Zainasheff (Mr. Malty) is a Ninkasi winner (2004) so he should know beer. In a lager he recommends a large starter, something like 2 liters in a 5 gallon batch to get the best beer.

Gordon Strong also is a Ninkasi winner (2008) so he should also know beer. He says that he often pitchs a single smack pack into his lager. Why would he do that? Shouldn't he know that such a small pitch would result in off flavors?

I don't think we know all the answers when we talk pitch rate. I've even seen two respected brewers using the same tools for counting yeast come up with numbers that vary by 50%.

 

[Scriv]

I've always had vigorous fermentation within 36 hours. What's the advantage?

I've tried both, single vial direct pitch and making starters. For me, the direct pitch kicks off within 24 hours, but I've had airlock activity in just 3 hours with starters.

 

[LesIsMore]

Just curious where you heard Strong say that. I checked his book because I was curious and he says, "If I'm going to pitch new yeast, I will almost always make a starter..." "I usually like to make a starter so that the yeast are actively fermenting when pitched; this results in a quicker start to fermentation and less chance of off-flavors developing"

he also mentions that the "pitchable" packages are best for 5 gallon batches of 1.048 wort

Just playing devils advocate here:
Jamil Zainasheff (Mr. Malty) is a Ninkasi winner (2004) so he should know beer. In a lager he recommends a large starter, something like 2 liters in a 5 gallon batch to get the best beer.

Gordon Strong also is a Ninkasi winner (2008) so he should also know beer. He says that he often pitchs a single smack pack into his lager. Why would he do that? Shouldn't he know that such a small pitch would result in off flavors?

I don't think we know all the answers when we talk pitch rate. I've even seen two respected brewers using the same tools for counting yeast come up with numbers that vary by 50%.

 

[RM-MN]

Just curious where you heard Strong say that. I checked his book because I was curious and he says, "If I'm going to pitch new yeast, I will almost always make a starter..." "I usually like to make a starter so that the yeast are actively fermenting when pitched; this results in a quicker start to fermentation and less chance of off-flavors developing"

he also mentions that the "pitchable" packages are best for 5 gallon batches of 1.048 wort

I found it on one of the podcasts he did. I'd look it up again but I'm trying to get in a 12 hour day. Google search for Gordon Strong and it will be in there.:rockin:

 

[masaba]

Just curious where you heard Strong say that. I checked his book because I was curious and he says, "If I'm going to pitch new yeast, I will almost always make a starter..." "I usually like to make a starter so that the yeast are actively fermenting when pitched; this results in a quicker start to fermentation and less chance of off-flavors developing"

he also mentions that the "pitchable" packages are best for 5 gallon batches of 1.048 wort

Here's one place where Gordon says this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17065.45

 

[Natdavis777]

Here's one place where Gordon says this: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17065.45

Are you saying this is a source where Gordon states he just pitches a smackpack only or that he still makes starters?

"For a normal strength lager, I typically use a smackpack of Wyeast or make a 1L starter with a vial of White Labs."

 

[masaba]

Are you saying this is a source where Gordon states he just pitches a smackpack only or that he still makes starters?

"For a normal strength lager, I typically use a smackpack of Wyeast or make a 1L starter with a vial of White Labs."

He says right there in the quoted text that he pitches one smackpack of Wyeast. He makes a 1L starter if he uses White Labs. Either way, this is a very small percentage of what Mr. Malty recommends.

 

[Natdavis777]

He says right there in the quoted text that he pitches one smackpack of Wyeast. He makes a 1L starter if he uses White Labs. Either way, this is a very small percentage of what Mr. Malty recommends.

Well, if it were a rattlesnake, it would have bit me. Right in front of my face. Only saw the white lab, and nothing about wyeast. My first lager, I only pitched 1 smack pack (didn't make starters then) and it stalled horribly