When to carbonate?

[mccamich]

I'm planning on kegging a dry stout on Thursday, a blonde ale on Friday, and a lager next Wednesday. These are all brews I'm planning on bringing to a big backyard party 2 Saturdays from now. Should I...

a) Keg the brews as planned, carbonate immediately, and store the carbonated brews until party time?
b) Keg the brews as planned, store the brews, and carbonate a couple of days before party time?
c) Wait to keg the brews until a couple days before party time, keg the brews, and carbonate immediately?

...and why? I have carbonation stones in all of my kegs so carbonation shouldn't take more than a day or two. The dry stout will be carbonated with beer gas, not straight CO2.

 

[lumpher]

I carbonate my beers as soon as I keg them. That way I can't forget, everything settles by the time I'm ready to drink them, and they're ready to go when I am. Besides, carbing makes sure the lid stays in place and on tight.

 

[mccamich]

I should also mention that the kegged beer won't be refrigerated at all, as I do not have the fridge space in my house to even try and do that and I'll be pouring it out of jockey boxes at the party so the beer will be pouring out cold, but the kegs will be whatever the outside temp is. The kegs themselves will be around 64F in my basement until the party. Day of the party the kegs'll be kept out of the sun but the outside temp will probably be between 60F-70F.

 

[day_trippr]

a) Keg the brews as planned, carbonate immediately, and store the carbonated brews until party time?

Because why not get it done with plenty of time to spare?

Cheers!

 

[Whisky River]

a) Keg the brews as planned, carbonate immediately, and store the carbonated brews until party time?

First off, kudos on a great pipeline, those sound terrific.
One more vote for A, no downside that I know of and it might give you a few extra days to dial in the carbonation if the first effort is too much or too little.

 

[mccamich]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I’m really proud of how these brews turns out: nitro stout, blonde ale that’s been “dry hopped” with fresh jalapeño, and an island style lager brewed with paradise seeds and lime peel. Final question: That handy “set it and forget it” force carbonation chart, is there one of those floating around for when you’re using a carbonation stone?

 

[day_trippr]

The level of carbonation at equilibrium is dictated by temperature and pressure, not rate. You can use our favorite carbonation table with or without your stones, the only difference will be how long it takes to reach equilibrium...

Cheers!

 

[mccamich]

The level of carbonation at equilibrium is dictated by temperature and pressure, not rate. You can use our favorite carbonation table with or without your stones, the only difference will be how long it takes to reach equilibrium...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....So using the information on that table, if I were using the slow and steady method, it would take me about 5-10 days to reach whatever my desired level of carbonation. For my Irish stout I want it somewhere around 1.8 volume of CO2: the beer and my basement are 64F, so I'd set my regulator to 16psi and wait 5-10 days for it to reach that volume of CO2/equilibrium. Since I'm using a carbonation stone, I still set my regulator to 16psi, but I'm going to reach that volume of CO2/equilibrium much quicker and because it's at equilibrium, it won't carbonate the beer anymore?

 

[Deadalus]

Correct, as long as it stays 64F.

Now, what kind of jockey box is it, a cold plate or coils? I'm not familiar with a cold plate but if coils you will likely need to up the pressure to serve properly through the coils. You could go a little higher on the pressure but I'd wait until closer to serving day to see what the expected temperature is outside. Also, I would pour 2 maybe three beers before moving them to flush the sediment from the bottom so that there is less stirred up from transport.

I'd cold crash the lager too, pretty cold if possible particularly if it was a lighter colored lager.

 

[mccamich]

Now, what kind of jockey box is it, a cold plate or coils?

I have a single tap jockey box that goes through stainless steel coils. That box has a stout tap on it and is getting the Irish stout on nitro. I was planning on serving that at 37-38psi. The other jockey box is double tapped that has a cold plate. That box is getting the blonde ale and lager on CO2. I'm planning on serving those around 12-14psi.

I'd cold crash the lager too, pretty cold if possible particularly if it was a lighter colored lager.

Yeah. Totally forgot to mention that the lager is currently lagering in my garage fridge at 34F. It's been there for about 2 months. I might have to find a way to put the CO2 tank in the fridge with the keg so the temp stays stable. When I serve the lager though, the keg is going to be at room/air temp, not refrigeration temp. Is that going to affect the volume of CO2 that will already be dissolved in it? Should I let the lager keg warm up to 64F before I carb it or find a way to keep it on ice when I serve it?

 

[Deadalus]

My bad too I should have asked, that's great you have it lagered I don't always plan so well for camping trips and miss out on some lagering time. I do generally keep my lagers in the ferm chamber right until transport but my ales don't always have a spot so I usually carb them up when they are done fermenting but at basement temp. Let me address your question though, the tank doesn't matter it can be outside the fridge chamber, if the keg is inside the fridge set to the carb level based on the fridge temp. When you arrive, pressurize it to either serving carb level or even outside temp which would be 16 psi or so. If you have an IR thermometer you could get a temperature of the keg and work with that. Doing it before and then transporting you would be increasing the pressure while the kegs are warming while bouncing around in a vehicle. If you only need the 12-14 psi to serve through the cold plate (I am taking your word here), you will lose some carbonation over time based on the chart for 1.8 vols at 64 needing 16 PSI. Honestly probably negligible unless leaving overnight. I have four coils, so I have to serve in the 20's and at night I have to make sure to cut them off to avoid overcarbonating.

I just got my nitro tank so I haven't had a chance to work with that in the field but looking forward to it! That's more complex, the nitrogen isn't dissolved as much though so I think you would have to consider what proportion is CO2 and partial pressures. @day_trippr has a nitrogen setup maybe he's still reading along, he's knowledgable about line calculations...

 

[day_trippr]

I do run a beer gas line to a beastly Micromatic stout faucet, using 70/30 N2/CO2 blend at 35 psi, with 6 feet of EVAbarrier 4mm ID tubing. There's no need (and indeed, you don't want) to use more than the minimum footage of tubing to get from keg to the flow restrictor in a stout faucet, which is the "flow rate governor"...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....So using the information on that table, if I were using the slow and steady method, it would take me about 5-10 days to reach whatever my desired level of carbonation. For my Irish stout I want it somewhere around 1.8 volume of CO2: the beer and my basement are 64F, so I'd set my regulator to 16psi and wait 5-10 days for it to reach that volume of CO2/equilibrium. Since I'm using a carbonation stone, I still set my regulator to 16psi, but I'm going to reach that volume of CO2/equilibrium much quicker and because it's at equilibrium, it won't carbonate the beer anymore?

Equilibrium means all of the beer has reached a static state. It's not like part of the beer would be at 1.8 volumes and other parts at a lower carbonation level.

If you are planning on dispensing this stout using beer gas through a stout faucet with beer gas at relatively high pressure you should consider carbonating only to 1.2~1.4 volumes. I aim for 1.2 which provides a nice cascade and a pleasantly lingering CO2 bite when blasted through my stout faucet at 35 psi. At 1.4 volumes the same stout will have more head than I want and actually end up flatter in the long run due to knockout. To carbonate that low I do leave the kegs sitting at cellar temperature as it's hard to carbonate cold beer to just 1.2 volumes

Cheers!

 

[mccamich]

Good advice all around. Thank you. I think this is what I'll do based on y'alls advice...

Irish Stout - carb with N/CO2 to 1.2 vols. at 64F, serve at 36 psi
Jalapeno Blonde - carb to 2.4 vols at 64F, serve at 14 psi
Island Style Lager - carb to 2.5 vols at 34F, serve at 14 psi

Party starts at 1pm, but I'm getting there around 10am so I can get it all set up on the jockey boxes and test them before go-time. I think those vols of CO2 are on the low end of the acceptable ranges for their respective styles, so if I need to increase them I think I'll have enough time to bring them up a bit. I think it'll be easier to increase carbonation than decrease it if I have to. Temps on the stout and blonde shouldn't be too different from my basement to the patio. It's shaded all day and the weatherman is calling for 71F that day. I can always change the serving psi on the fly if its too low. I'll probably put them all on ice at the party for serving. I'll let y'all know how it goes!

 

[mccamich]

So I got the stout and blonde ale kegged and hooked up to the beer gas and CO2 respectively. I set the regulators to the psi on the carbonation chart, taking into account the wetting pressure of my carb stones of 4psi, the temperature of the beer, and the vols of CO2 I want in each. Question: How do I know when equilibrium has been reached? Do I just wait and keep sampling the beer? I notice on both regulators that after some time the pressure gauge is reading higher than what I set it at. I set the beer gas to 10psi and after some hours it’s reading 12psi. I set the CO2 for the blonde at 30psi and in 30 minutes it’s jumped up to 40+psi. I release the head pressure and re-set it to what I want, and it does the same thing. Am I doing something wrong here?

 

[day_trippr]

There can be some initial drift after setting a pressure but it should be modest - a couple of psi maybe - and shouldn't take more than one correction to stabilize. Have you used these regulators before?

As for "how long", using chart pressure in my experience it reliably takes a full corny keg of middling FG (teens) at least two weeks to reach equilibrium, based mostly on subjective characterization. But I've also confirmed as much by taken a keg off gas, attaching a 0-30 psi gauge to it, and not see it drop overnight...

Cheers!

 

[mccamich]

These are new regulators.

it reliably takes a full corny keg of middling FG (teens) at least two weeks to reach equilibrium, based mostly on subjective characterization.

It even takes that long with a carb stone? I thought that’s how long it takes w/o using a carb stone.

 

[day_trippr]

I've never used a carbonation stone, and haven't read anything definitive about how much they might shorten the time needed. What I know about using them is they perform best if the flow rate is quite low...

Cheers!

 

[mccamich]

Question: The psi I set my regulators to, is that measuring the psi output of CO2 from my tanks or the psi inside of the keg?

 

[doug293cz]

These are new regulators.


It even takes that long with a carb stone? I thought that’s how long it takes w/o using a carb stone.

It happens much faster with a carb stone, since you create lots of small bubbles with a massive amount of surface area. The best way to use a carb stone is to start at a couple of PSI, let it rest for a while, then turn it up a PSI or two, let rest, etc. If you can hear the CO2 flowing, time the rests to be 5 minutes after you can't hear anymore flow.

Question: The psi I set my regulators to, is that measuring the psi output of CO2 from my tanks or the psi inside of the keg?

The low pressure gauge on the regulator tells you what the pressure is in the CO2 lines and the keg headspace (they are equal, unless you have a high flow rate.)

Brew on

 

[mccamich]

Turns out the fancy new regulators I bought from Northern Brewer were defective and some other people were having the same problem with them as me: psi kept increasing well past the set point to the point it was triggering the relief valve. I'm returning those regulators and I bought NEW new regulators from a local Brew & Grow shop by me. I'm now worried that the stout and blonde ale are over-carbonated so I've been trying to purge them every so often. Gonna hook them back up to the gas with the new regulators tonight and start reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal low on the psi and slowly up it to the equilibrium psi for my basement temp. Tomorrow, the lager gets kegged and carbed. Fingers crossed it all goes smoothly from here on out.

I also found corny keg lids that are fitted with their own pressure gauge so I can accurately see head pressure as well as the set pressure on the regulator. It might just be security theater, but hopefully that will quell any anxiety I have about what's happening in my kegs vs. what I think and my regulators say is happening in my kegs. Ball Lock Corny Home Brewing Keg Replacement Lid - 0-90psi Pressure Gauge + PRV

 

[mccamich]

Lager is kegged. Everything is carbing like it should. Regulators are regulating like they should. Smooth sailing right now. Hopefully it all keeps going smoothly for party time.

 

[day_trippr]

So, you glad you didn't put it off now?

Cheers!

 

[mccamich]

So, you glad you didn't put it off now?

Cheers!

Oh....for sure. lol I would've been f***ed with them defective regulators.

 

[mccamich]

Party was bitchin’! Beers were perfect! Jockey boxes worked perfect! Everything was carved like I hoped it would be. Killed 2 kegs! Thanks everyone for the advice and help!

 

[day_trippr]

Congrats!