When Drew met Mr. Diacetyl: A horror story

[BeerBDrew]

My brother and I just started out a couple months ago brewing extract w/ grain kits from Brewer's Best. We did an APA 1st, which turned out ok, then an English brown ale, again ok.

At a family function about a week after brewing the brown, we were asked to make some beer for the family Christmas gathering. As noone has tasted our beers, we decided to go with two more BB kits so we would know what to expect, and decided on 2010 Hopnog for the craft brew crowd, and Kolsch for the BMC crowd (not yet lager-ready).

Primaried for 4 weeks and bottled the Hopnog last Wednesday, the Kolsch this Sunday. I have noticed that our beers have taken only a week to carbonate nicely w/ the 5 oz corn sugar that comes w/ the BB kits. So, I popped open a Hopnog a couple nights ago and...Holy dog shnitzle! This is a very tasty brew.

Tonight I tried the kolsch, and while a bit young (though almost 5 weeks from brewday) it tastes like cold cheap microwave popcorn, but without any of the nice popcorn texture. As it warmed it only got more intense and wretched. Like I told my brother, I hope this will age out but expect it won't. Man, that flavor will be forever etched in my memory!

On the bright side (besides the experience) in small quantities it adds a bit of complexity to the brown ale.

Cheers all

 

[kingmatt]

My brother and I just started out a couple months ago brewing extract w/ grain kits from Brewer's Best. We did an APA 1st, which turned out ok, then an English brown ale, again ok.

At a family function about a week after brewing the brown, we were asked to make some beer for the family Christmas gathering. As noone has tasted our beers, we decided to go with two more BB kits so we would know what to expect, and decided on 2010 Hopnog for the craft brew crowd, and Kolsch for the BMC crowd (not yet lager-ready).

Primaried for 4 weeks and bottled the Hopnog last Wednesday, the Kolsch this Sunday. I have noticed that our beers have taken only a week to carbonate nicely w/ the 5 oz corn sugar that comes w/ the BB kits. So, I popped open a Hopnog a couple nights ago and...Holy dog shnitzle! This is a very tasty brew.

Tonight I tried the kolsch, and while a bit young (though almost 5 weeks from brewday) it tastes like cold cheap microwave popcorn, but without any of the nice popcorn texture. As it warmed it only got more intense and wretched. Like I told my brother, I hope this will age out but expect it won't. Man, that flavor will be forever etched in my memory!

On the bright side (besides the experience) in small quantities it adds a bit of complexity to the brown ale.

Cheers all

Did you lager your Kolsch? Not familiar with the BB kits but it seems a bit odd for a Kolsch to have high levels of diacetyl as it is warm fermented and the lagered so the yeast should have plenty of opportunity to clean up after themselves.

 

[BeerBDrew]

I built a make-shift ferm chiller out of a cardboard box and styrofoam insulation panels, then primaried the kolsch at an average temp of 62*. I am kicking myself right now for not having taken better notes, so forgive the lack of info. I am pretty sure based on memory that the temp did fluctuate by a number of degrees, sometimes as much as 4 inside of one day. I now know this is not a good thing for yeast, but maybe does not explain the diacetyl.

When we first started we had issues with the wort chiller and struggled to get the temp down below the 78* range, though my memory is this got better with the Xmas batches. This is the only thing I can think may have cause it.

 

[wonderbread23]

Yeah, Kolsch yeast will do that if you ferment it cool and then do not warm it up near the end. I'd store the bottles at room temp for awhile and hopefully the remaining yeast will clean up the diacetyl.

 

[BeerBDrew]

yeah that's another funny thing. I made a rookie mistake with these two beers. I wanted to try liquid yeast, thinking I could make the kolsch more to style and it couldn't hurt the hopnog, right? Well, I bought Wyeast Propagator packs, which I now know are intended to be pitched to starters ONLY, and I didn't figure this out until about 2 hours after pitching.

Once I figured that out, I pitched what came with the kits - Nottingham dry ale for the hopnog (which is great) and Safale US-05 for the kolsch. I think it was fine for the hopnog (the propagator for it was 1065 I believe), but maybe that played a role in the kolsch diacetyl-ness. Too many factors at play for a newbie like myself to sort through.

I do think, though, that 2 hours isn't that long and the notty and US-05 probably rendered the Wyeast small populations moot by outnumbering thus out competing them, so they may have had very little if any impact on the final product. Any thoughts?

 

[kingmatt]

yeah that's another funny thing. I made a rookie mistake with these two beers. I wanted to try liquid yeast, thinking I could make the kolsch more to style and it couldn't hurt the hopnog, right? Well, I bought Wyeast Propagator packs, which I now know are intended to be pitched to starters ONLY, and I didn't figure this out until about 2 hours after pitching.

Once I figured that out, I pitched what came with the kits - Nottingham dry ale for the hopnog (which is great) and Safale US-05 for the kolsch. I think it was fine for the hopnog (the propagator for it was 1065 I believe), but maybe that played a role in the kolsch diacetyl-ness. Too many factors at play for a newbie like myself to sort through.

I do think, though, that 2 hours isn't that long and the notty and US-05 probably rendered the Wyeast small populations moot by outnumbering thus out competing them, so they may have had very little if any impact on the final product. Any thoughts?

This batch might just end up being a learning experience for you into the world of lagering.

Rule #1 - pitch A LOT of healthy yeast. You should definitely make a starter (at least 3L).

Rule #2 - have a dedicated lagering device (a mini-fridge or kegerator with a temp control.

Rule #3 - Diacetyl rest. Some would disagree but from what I have read...it can't hurt.

Take my advice with a grain of salt because I have only done one lager so far, but I read up and followed this advice and it turned out excellent!

 

[BeerBDrew]

This batch might just end up being a learning experience for you into the world of lagering.

Rule #1 - pitch A LOT of healthy yeast. You should definitely make a starter (at least 3L).

Rule #2 - have a dedicated lagering device (a mini-fridge or kegerator with a temp control.

Rule #3 - Diacetyl rest. Some would disagree but from what I have read...it can't hurt.

Take my advice with a grain of salt because I have only done one lager so far, but I read up and followed this advice and it turned out excellent!

After about two weeks of checking the temps three times a day and replacing frozen bottles and such, I let it rise to room temp for the next two weeks. I was hoping that would help clean it up a bit. Thing is, the sample I took after a week in primary tasted great.

In the future, I plan to choose only yeasts that thrive in the 68-72 range, since my basement stays at a constant temp range of 68-70, and only fluctuates maybe a half degree per day when it does. Usually it stays at 69. :rockin:

I've been on Craigslist on the lookout for a free/cheap fridge to use but until then I'll stick with the above. Thanks for the advice!

Cheers

 

[kingmatt]

After about two weeks of checking the temps three times a day and replacing frozen bottles and such, I let it rise to room temp for the next two weeks. I was hoping that would help clean it up a bit. Thing is, the sample I took after a week in primary tasted great.

In the future, I plan to choose only yeasts that thrive in the 68-72 range, since my basement stays at a constant temp range of 68-70, and only fluctuates maybe a half degree per day when it does. Usually it stays at 69. :rockin:

I've been on Craigslist on the lookout for a free/cheap fridge to use but until then I'll stick with the above. Thanks for the advice!

Cheers

You should read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

It doesn't sound like you lagered at all.

 

[BeerBDrew]

You should read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

It doesn't sound like you lagered at all.

I didn't actually. I tried to keep it at the bottom of the temp range stated on the Safale US-05 package, which was basically 60*. I just thought it would help it not produce too many fruity esters since i was trying to brew an ale that was close to a lager for the BMC crowd (read: Dad) at Christmas. I respect your take on things as a more experienced brewer and welcome your advice. Thanks for the link too.

Btw, I noticed in your sig you brewed EdWort's apfelwein - is that as easy as it looks and how did it turn out?

 

[kingmatt]

I didn't actually. I tried to keep it at the bottom of the temp range stated on the Safale US-05 package, which was basically 60*. I just thought it would help it not produce too many fruity esters since i was trying to brew an ale that was close to a lager for the BMC crowd (read: Dad) at Christmas. I respect your take on things as a more experienced brewer and welcome your advice. Thanks for the link too.

Btw, I noticed in your sig you brewed EdWort's apfelwein - is that as easy as it looks and how did it turn out?

Its easier than it looks and is delicious...especially if you are able to let it age some before drinking it all

 

[JLem]

After about two weeks of checking the temps three times a day and replacing frozen bottles and such, I let it rise to room temp for the next two weeks. I was hoping that would help clean it up a bit. Thing is, the sample I took after a week in primary tasted great.

This is a bit weird. It seems like you did a diacetyl rest by letting the temp rise at the end of fermetnation and I don't think diacetyl usually forms in the bottles. While, yes, it would have been a good idea to lager this a while after you let the temps rise up, I'm still surprised that you're getting such an intense flavor. Guess you can only hope that some age will mellow it out. Sorry.

 

[Justibone]

Carbing in the bottle is essentially a second fermentation. You could be tasting diacetyl from the carbonation process. Keep the bottles warm... if there are live yeast in there then they will clean up your butter-beer.

If they don't, tell everyone it's in honor of the Harry Potter movie.

 

[BrewDocND]

I didn't actually. I tried to keep it at the bottom of the temp range stated on the Safale US-05 package, which was basically 60*. I just thought it would help it not produce too many fruity esters since i was trying to brew an ale that was close to a lager for the BMC crowd (read: Dad) at Christmas. I respect your take on things as a more experienced brewer and welcome your advice. Thanks for the link too.

Btw, I noticed in your sig you brewed EdWort's apfelwein - is that as easy as it looks and how did it turn out?

Apfelwein is insanely easy to make, you just have to be patient with the final products. I didn't like it 4 months out, but now it's 10 months out (2 month primary, 8 month bottle conditioning) and it's rounding into form (and quite dangerous since it's so easy to drink)

 

[pvtschultz]

I'm going to dig this one up from the grave for more input. I made a cream ale back around Christmas time using Wyeast Kolsch yeast, primaried for a week and then bottle conditioned for at least three weeks. Even today at 4+ weeks I can taste a moderate diacetyl in the beer. I reused the yeast for a "dunkel" ale, primaried for three weeks, tasted great going into the bottle, tasted great after about two days of carbing (no RDWAHAHB for me but it was carbonated), tasted another at four days and I had to choke it down because of the diacetyl. I'm thinking about going to US-05 for a clean fermenting yeast in the future because of the bottle conditioning diacetyl that I get from this yeast.

Is this normal? I condition at ~64 degrees and some were in the fridge for 3+ weeks with the same taste.

 

[Justibone]

Sometimes the funky types of yeast do that to ya. Kolsch yeast are related to lager yeast, and if you don't do a rest then you will have diacetyl.

I agree with you using a "cleaner" yeast, but also try fermenting at a nice low temp (64F ambient is probably not more than 69F in the beer) and letting the beer rest longer before primary (I never bottle before 3 weeks).