What size is your secondary?

[jaydlaw]

I do not currently have a secondary, but i am looking into getting one soon. I've read that it should be smaller than your primary to eliminate the extra air within it. How big is your secondary. my primary is i believe 6.5 gallons. I would like a secondary of a similar size. I am inclined to think that 5 gallons may be too small depending on what is in the secondary with the beer.

 

[Vamptrump]

When I secondary, which is rare, I move from a 6.5g to a 5g. I've had no issues with volume, unless you are planning to rack onto something very large.

 

[zippy84]

Why do people still secondary? Is it just for something to do? Everything I've read by the experts states that yeast these days is so much improved over years ago, there is no need to secondary ferment. The risk of oxidation and infection from transferring is much greater than the risk of autolysis from leaving in primary... which lets face it, is pretty much non-existent. Even when I dry hop it's in the primary, surely the same can be done for other additions.

Is it only done for actual secondary ferments?

 

[Vamptrump]

Why do people still secondary?

The only time I ever do a secondary is if I need to impart flavors over a longer period of time. For instance oak chips. Even then, I'm only concerned about freeing up a primary carboy.

There are two other reasons I could see doing it.

1) If you are saving the yeast cake.
2) You have a large volume of something (fruit, more than likely) and you would rather rack onto it instead of splashing it into the primary.

 

[WI_Wino]

I agree that secondary is not needed for most beers. I typically move sours after the initial ferment is completed to a smaller carboy. Also I'll move something like an RIS to a secondary that I like to bulk age for a couple of months after primary ferment is complete.

I have a collection of 7, 6, 5, and 3 gallon carboys. Also have 1 gallon jugs and 1/2 gallon growlers that all get used as secondaries, depending on the batch size of the beer.

 

[zippy84]

oak chips.

I've read this as being one of the valid alright, but why? Too much sediment with oak and yeast sediment combined?

1) If you are saving the yeast cake.

Can't this be done from primary?

2) You have a large volume of something (fruit, more than likely) and you would rather rack onto it instead of splashing it into the primary.

You don't need to splash, can be done gently? I batch prime adding sugar solution to primary.

 

[Gavin C]

If you feel the unquenchable urge and burning desire to use a secondary vessel, use one that closely matches your planned bottling/kegging volume.

If your planning 5 gallons of beer at the end, a 5 gallon vessel is what you should use. One with a narrow opening.

The goal is little to no headspace and small surface area exposed to air in the vessel to minimize the risk of oxidation.

Edit: If adding fruit/oak is the purpose of the secondary vessel the added volume of fruit/oak and any planned second fermentation should of course be factored in when determining vessel size. If no additions, my above advice stands as is.

 

[zippy84]

The goal is little to no headspace and small surface area exposed to air in the vessel to minimize the risk of oxidation.

Surely more chance of oxidation would come from racking than from leaving it undisturbed in primary where it pushed all oxygen out in the first place?

 

[ArcLight]

If I secondary I use a better bottle:

If I'm adding fruit, I use a 6 gallon Better bottle

If I'm doing extended aging I use a 5 gallon better bottle


I don't secondary for most beers, just cold crash.

 

[Gavin C]

Surely more chance of oxidation would come from racking than from leaving it undisturbed in primary where it pushed all oxygen out in the first place?

I completely agree which is why I never use a secondary. The OP however, wanted to know what size vessel would be best if using one.

 

[zippy84]

If I'm adding fruit, I use a 6 gallon Better bottle

Why? Is there a reason not to add fruit to primary?

If I'm doing extended aging I use a 5 gallon better bottle

This can be done in the primary.

I completely agree which is why I never use a secondary. The OP however, wanted to know what size vessel would be best if using one.

Good point, sorry if I derailed your opening question OP. Maybe this isn't the place.

 

[Vamptrump]

I've read this as being one of the valid alright, but why? Too much sediment with oak and yeast sediment combined?

It's a time factor for me. Oak takes awhile to impart flavors, but I need to turn the primary around for another batch. I share my equipment with others so I work on a 3 week schedule of brewing in my primary.

Can't this be done from primary?

It depends on what the secondary is being used for. If for instance you are adding fruit, you don't want that mixing with the cake you are going to harvest from.

You don't need to splash, can be done gently? I batch prime adding sugar solution to primary.

Sugar solution is a lot less thick than pureed or even just smashed fruit.

 

[zippy84]

It's a time factor for me.............. Sugar solution is a lot less think than pureed or even just smashed fruit.

All good points, cheers.

 

[eadavis80]

Mine are all 5 gallons.

 

[ArcLight]

I use fruit puree and if I add it to the primary it may get mixed up in the trub and not as well utilized. I also tend to get sediment when racking from the puree, so I try and limit that.

While one might be able to add puree to the primary, I think I get much less sediment using a secondary.



As for long term aging in the primary - that's a bad idea for 2 reasons.

1) I use buckets which are not as good an Oxygen barrier as Better Bottles. O2 will gradually leak into a sealed bucket.
There is head space in a primary bucket, but not in a better bottle as the secondary.
There would be a risk of gradual Oxidation.


2) Autolysis. I think that over 6 months you would likely add off flavors from autolysis.


Secondaries do have their place, but you should have a specific reason, and not just "well, thats what the instructions said".
A secondary wont clear up your beer compared to letting it sit. I use it for reducing sediment and as a better Oxygen barrier.

Why? Is there a reason not to add fruit to primary?

see above

This can be done in the primary.

No it cant. see above

Good point, sorry if I derailed your opening question OP. Maybe this isn't the place.

 

[beskone]

I use a 6 gallon primary and 5 gallon secondary any time I'm dry hopping. I find it results in a clearer cleaner beer once I crash and package.

When I only had one 6 gallon it also freed up my primary.

I am using co2 to force transfer so oxidation is not a concern.

 

[ArcLight]

Surely more chance of oxidation would come from racking than from leaving it undisturbed in primary where it pushed all oxygen out in the first place?

Not for extended aging. If you use a bucket, Oxygen will leak in, and can affect the beer flavor. Plus a bucket has more head space that will eventually get permeated by Oxygen over months.

 

[ArcLight]

The risk from autolysis over month of extended aging in a primary is real.

As for dry hopping in the secondary, I've been considering that.

Why do people still secondary? Is it just for something to do? Everything I've read by the experts states that yeast these days is so much improved over years ago, there is no need to secondary ferment. The risk of oxidation and infection from transferring is much greater than the risk of autolysis from leaving in primary... which lets face it, is pretty much non-existent. Even when I dry hop it's in the primary, surely the same can be done for other additions.

Is it only done for actual secondary ferments?

 

[zippy84]

The risk from autolysis over month of extended aging in a primary is real.

As for dry hopping in the secondary, I've been considering that.

Afaik, the general consensus on here and elsewhere seems to be that it generally doesn't happen as long as temps are kept reasonable and a good strain of healthy yeast is used. People on here have reported leaving beer on the yeast for months without any discernible difference. I wouldn't leave it that long, just saying.

 

[jaydlaw]

Secondaries do have their place, but you should have a specific reason, and not just "well, thats what the instructions said".
A secondary wont clear up your beer compared to letting it sit. I use it for reducing sediment and as a better Oxygen barrier.

I agree with the above point

I am going back and forth, but after re-evaluating my needs. I believe that i need another vessel/ carboy so i can brew more often. right now i'm stuck waiting for the beer to ferment and when it does its out of the carboy and into bottles. if i had a another, it could be used as a secondary for fruits or as an additional primary so i could let the sediment settle more instead of bottling sooner than i would like, so i am not getting a bunch of yeast at the bottom of my bottles. maybe i just need to save for a keg setup. i am looking at that as well.

 

[ArcLight]

"the general consensus on here" means little, thats not a statistical sample of experts, not scientifically tested.
I've had nationally ranked BJCP judges pick out autolysis in one beer that was aged with yeast. It was either Gordon Strong or Ray Daniels that said that autolysis can be a problem over months.
It doesn't have to be, but it's not a negligible risk. You are speaking as if you are an authority and I ask you what proof you have to make a statement like that?

If someone isn't a trained taster they may have no idea what autolysis tastes like. I didn't until a judge explained it to me.

Afaik, the general consensus on here and elsewhere seems to be that it generally doesn't happen as long as temps are kept reasonable and a good strain of healthy yeast is used. People on here have reported leaving beer on the yeast for months without any discernible difference. I wouldn't leave it that long, just saying.

 

[Vamptrump]

Straight from Mr. Gordon Strong with regards to how long is too long for fermentation

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17065.30

How long is too long for fermentation? When autolysis starts. That is more a function of temperature and time than just time alone. Higher temperatures force the yeast to try to be active, and they cannibalize themselves if given the chance. You can tell this happens when you start getting more of a glutamate flavor in your beer (like adding MSG). Generally, I don't worry too much about leaving my beers on the yeast unless it's hot. When the beer drops bright in the primary, fermentation is done and the yeast have flocculated. Time to rack. Some yeast take longer than others (some Belgian strains need the extra time to clean up after themselves), and other yeast will drop like a rock (I'm looking at you, 1968). I don't transfer based on gravity unless I'm trying to do a secondary fermentation or lagering. I generally wait for it to finish, and then drop bright. That's for ale yeast. I don't expect lager yeast to drop bright until lagering is done, and even then they often need help. I'm more likely to transfer to a secondary when the yeast are still working since it reduces the chance of oxidation. However, most of my batches just go from primary to keg, so getting them bright is important to me.

More importantly, the transfer to secondary when fermentation is still active to prevent oxidation is smart. Gordon is a smart cookie.

 

[ArcLight]

I believe that i need another vessel/ carboy so i can brew more often. right now i'm stuck waiting for the beer to ferment and when it does its out of the carboy and into bottles. if i had a another, it could be used as a secondary for fruits or as an additional primary so i could let the sediment settle more instead of bottling sooner than i would like, so i am not getting a bunch of yeast at the bottom of my bottles. maybe i just need to save for a keg setup. i am looking at that as well.

1. Buy a 2nd bucket

2. as for fruit vs long term aging - you really want to limit Oxygen exposure for the long term aging, and for that, a 5 gallon Better Bottle works well.
For fruit, I suppose you could add the fruit to the primary, but you'd likely end up with more sediment than you would like.


When I rack, even if I'm careful, I still bring over more trub than I'd like, so I have used a secondary (5 gallon better bottle) as a vessel that I do the cold crash in. I've cut way down on the trub at the bottom of my bottles.

The way I look at it:

the certainty of more trub in a bottle vs.
the probability of an infection & the risk of oxidation

 

[zippy84]

You are speaking as if you are an authority and I ask you what proof you have to make a statement like that?

You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. I clearly do not think I'm an authority on the matter as I've already thanked people for correcting me on this thread and using the term 'general consensus' means I read more people dismissing it than otherwise as my own experience counts for less. But I'm here to learn as much as anything so no need to be so condescending.

 

[ArcLight]

You are offering advice and criticizing as if you are knowledgeable.
I disagree with some of what you are saying. It won't impact me, but your "advice" may result in people following it and getting bad results.

If you are here to learn that listen to people who disagree with you and consider what their concerns are. You don't have to agree with them, but maybe what they say is correct.

The general consensus has been to move away from doing a secondary unless you have a reason to perform one. I think bottling from the primary is a poor idea. Adding fruit puree to the primary? That could work, though I'd rack to a better bottle and let it sit just to filter out some of the sludge.

You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. I clearly do not think I'm an authority on the matter as I've already thanked people for correcting me on this thread and using the term 'general consensus' means I read more people dismissing it than otherwise as my own experience counts for less. But I'm here to learn as much as anything so no need to be so condescending.

 

[zippy84]

You are offering advice and criticizing as if you are knowledgeable.
I disagree with some of what you are saying. It won't impact me, but your "advice" may result in people following it and getting bad results.

Sometimes tone doesn't come across correctly online, but if you read back over my posts, I've been questioning what people have said, not to offer advice and criticize as you say, but to get more info from them on the matter. I'm in no position to criticize or speak from authority lol, and I'd hope that's not what came across to you or anyone else.

 

[ArcLight]

It didn't come across to me as questioning, it came across as someone who thought they knew everything and that others didn't.
If that was not your intent, then I misjudged your tone and comments.

I agree that the standard secondary "for clearing" is no longer supported by most advanced brewers. I do use a secondary for aging, and for reducing sediment. I'm aware of the risk of infection and oxidation, but in those 2 cases I think it's worth it.
Maybe my racking technique isn't optimal, but I always seem to get more trub than I'd like. Thus I find a short term secondary & cold crash useful. I get much less trub.

Best case would be to keg, but I bottle.

Sometimes tone doesn't come across correctly online, but if you read back over my posts, I've been questioning what people have said, not to offer advice and criticize as you say, but to get more info from them on the matter. I'm in no position to criticize or speak from authority lol, and I'd hope that's not what came across to you or anyone else.

 

[govner1]

I do not currently have a secondary, but i am looking into getting one soon. I've read that it should be smaller than your primary to eliminate the extra air within it. How big is your secondary. my primary is i believe 6.5 gallons. I would like a secondary of a similar size. I am inclined to think that 5 gallons may be too small depending on what is in the secondary with the beer.

Despite the impending dispute re 2° or no 2°, the answer to your question is to use a secondary fermenter that minimizes O2 exposure. In other words, you want to fill it as fully as possible. Most of the guys I brew w/ do 5-10 gal batches. They split these into two 6+ gal primary fermentors to allow for the yeast activity. They then use 5 gal carboys for secondary.
I happen to do 6 gal batches. I do my 1° in 5 or 6 gal BB's and then 2° in 3 gal BB's. Again this fills the carboy and helps prevent oxidation.
Unlike many, I do a 2° almost always. Even if I'm not doing a dry hop or other flavor addition. Then again, I'm older & more patient and don't mind waiting for a good beer!

 

[Vamptrump]

I never perceived any questions as anything other than that. So I think everyone needs to hug it out and share a homebrew.

I still stick with 6.5 to 5, if and only if you need to long age, fruit infuse, free up a primary, or save the yeast cake before doing something else to the beer.

 

[brewcat]

I don't secondary anymore. I used a 5 gallon when I did. I suppose it may be necessary for certain flavor additions and long term aging (3-6 months or more). My bigger beers just stay in the primary for a month then get bottled. I figure bottling and/or kegging can be that long term aging.

My suggestion is to save up for that keg system.

 

[jaydlaw]

govner1

Off topic question. Where do you purchase goods/ supplies from? i ask because I am in the Atlanta area as well.

 

[jaydlaw]

1 more question...
I really want a 2nd primary that could be utilized as a secondary when needed, so 5 gal would be out of the question as that is the size of the batches i make. how much of an issue would it be to transfer from a 6.5 gal to a 6.5 gal secondary when necessary? has anyone ever done it, or does everyone always go from 6.5 to 5?

 

[Vamptrump]

I've done a 6.5 to a 6.5 before. The main issue that you get is all of the head room for oxygen. Oxygen = bad. One way to offset that is to flush with CO2, but that adds another step and expense. It is possible though.

 

[jaydlaw]

I've done a 6.5 to a 6.5 before. The main issue that you get is all of the head room for oxygen. Oxygen = bad. One way to offset that is to flush with CO2, but that adds another step and expense. It is possible though.

I get oxygen is bad, but if it is the same size as the primary, how much harm would i really be doing versus leaving it in the primary longer?

 

[Vamptrump]

The primary has established a bed of CO2 that protects. By transferring to another vessel you are breaking that seal that exists. Unless you have a good reason to go to a secondary, just leave it in the primary. So unless you recreate that seal by flushing the carboy with CO2 during a transfer, you are creating a decent head space of oxygen just waiting to ruin your day.

There was actually an interview with John Palmer that was posted yesterday on YouTube from CraigTube. Palmer actually said what I've been saying. Leave the beer in the primary unless you really have to do something to it such as adding fruit, bugs, etc. He said he wants to edit his book again, and make that point clear. Big bad autolysis isn't as much of an issue as it was 20 yrs ago when he originally preached about moving to secondary.

 

[ArcLight]

response in your post:

The primary has established a bed of CO2 that protects.

That's not really true. O2 can leak in when you open the fermentor to take a gravity reading, and buckets leak O2 as well. Gasses mix (I forgot the law from Chemistry), and Oxidation can occur over time

By transferring to another vessel you are breaking that seal that exists. Unless you have a good reason to go to a secondary, just leave it in the primary. So unless you recreate that seal by flushing the carboy with CO2 during a transfer, you are creating a decent head space of oxygen just waiting to ruin your day.

This is only true if you rack to a vessel with a lot of head space. A 5 gallon Better Bottle has less head space than your primary fermentor, and is less Oxygen permeable than a bucket.


There was actually an interview with John Palmer that was posted yesterday on YouTube from CraigTube. Palmer actually said what I've been saying. Leave the beer in the primary unless you really have to do something to it such as adding fruit, bugs, etc. He said he wants to edit his book again, and make that point clear. Big bad autolysis isn't as much of an issue as it was 20 yrs ago when he originally preached about moving to secondary.

Autolysis isn't a problem over 2-4 weeks, especially if the beer isn't warm. But it can be over 3-6+ months, especially if the beer isn't cool.

 

[ArcLight]

1 more question...
I really want a 2nd primary that could be utilized as a secondary when needed, so 5 gal would be out of the question as that is the size of the batches i make. how much of an issue would it be to transfer from a 6.5 gal to a 6.5 gal secondary when necessary? has anyone ever done it, or does everyone always go from 6.5 to 5?

I would buy another fermentation bucket and not rack to a secondary.
Minimizing headspace in a secondary is quite important.

 

[Vamptrump]

response in your post:

What you are saying is true. Most of my responses were under the assumption of moving from a 6.5 carboy to another 6.5 carboy. A lot of the issues then become factors vs. moving from 6.5 to 5.

 

[jaydlaw]

Thanks all, so what I'm getting from the thread is that if I purchase a 6.5 gallon carboy it is best if I utilize as a primary only. I'm hesitant to purchase a 5 gal cause I have more of a need for an additional primary verses a secondary.

 

[govner1]

govner1

Off topic question. Where do you purchase goods/ supplies from? i ask because I am in the Atlanta area as well.

I go to Just Brew It in the Southside. Go supplies & prices on grains, yeast, etc.