What is the difference between a 60 minute boil and a 90 minute one?

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@Silver_Is_Money : I did a visual visual comparision of the PDFs mentioned in #34 and #41. They appear to be the same - so the BBR podcast that I mentioned may contain interesting information.

Silver_Is_Money said:
According to quite recent detailed research conducted by Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D at Hillsdale College, in conjunction with his students, pellet hops essentially deliver all of the IBU's that they are ever going to deliver within only about 30 minutes, and they are at about 90% of achieving this end by 20 minutes. And they are about 70%-75% of the way there in only 5-10 minutes. And get this, they are ballpark 60% of the way home within as little as 1 minute.
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Agreed - and this may be the "secret sauce" / "magic" that powers "15 minute pale ale", "BBR Hop Sampler", and "no boil" NEIPAs.

His research renders all current IBU calculators totally useless when dealing with pellet hops.
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A while back, I loaded (and perhaps misused :eek:) some of the data from Hamilton (pellet hops) and Tenseth (whole hops). It appears that at about 25 minutes and beyond (time left in the boil), the data is pretty much the same.

That being said, I have no interest in evaluating the numerous IBU calculators (and their numerous configuration options) to have an opinion as to how well they might estimate IBUs in the 0 to 30 minute range.
 
I combined the Tinseth equation with empirical hop utilization ratios from the following link from Palmer to develop my own simplified equation for IBUs, shown at bottom of this post, including estimation of IBUs from so-called hop stand or whirlpool additions as a post-boil high temperature steep. This is only an estimate, good within about 10 IBUs (kind of like Tinseth). An estimation of IBUs is better than nothing IMO.

Palmer:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/hops/hop-bittering-calculations
Looking at Palmer's hop utilization ratios for a normal gravity beer of say 1.060, increasing boil time from 60 minutes to 90 minutes improves utilization from 21.1% to 22.6%. Wow, what a huge gain. ;)

So here's my swaggy formula which you should find will get you really close vs. Tinseth, or as measured in a lab, within like I say about 10 IBUs, i.e., "close enough for most intents and purposes" (another one of my mottos). If you have multiple hop additions, you have to calculate them all separately then add it all together to get the total obviously.

IBU = oz * AA% * [sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V + sqrt(2*HStime)/V]

where:
Boiltime and HStime (Hop Stand a.k.a. Whirlpool time) need to be entered in minutes of course,
V is volume in gallons,
At high gravity (e.g., >1.080), change the sqrt 5 to a 4 instead, and sqrt 2 to 1.5,
At low gravity (e.g., 1.035-1.040), change the 5 to a 6, and the 2 to 2.5.

Maybe this will help somebody, and/or reduce the mystique with how IBUs are calculated. A little more messy basis stuff from yours truly is linked here, for anyone brave enough to attempt to understand it:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7891/45991029004_df99d89bc1_o.png
 
mabrungard said:
They don’t brew with pils malt. The slightly darker malt they use, has little SMM.
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Would there be an issue with a 20 minute hops stand using an extra light or light DME? If so can it be avoided with a cooler temperature ?
 
Beer Viking said:
Just wondering how often the beers you make are made mostly of pilsner malt?
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I started with extract, then progressed to extract with crystal malt steeping, extract with partial mash steeping, and lastly I had fully transitioned to all-grain by 1994. My favorite brewing challenge over the years has been making good Bohemian Pilsner, and this quest began with my first all-grain beer. I did however go through an extended period of roughly 15 years of not brewing at all until returning to the hobby again in earnest after retiring in 2016. Thus my "on and off" statement... I'd have to say that over the years of my active all-grain brewing I've used more Pilsner base malt than any other type of base malt, and since returning to the hobby in 2016 I've settled upon using exclusively Pilsner malt as my base malt of choice in an effort to simplify things by purchasing base malt in 25 Kg. sacks. I generally abhor IPA's. I also like chasing the Eliot Ness and Vienna Lager styles. I've easily used more Pilsner malt as my all-grain base malt over the years than any other base malt. But I'm strictly an amateur brewer using meager equipment and mashing in a cooler with bag. When boiling I do attempt to maintain a moderate rolling boil in an open boil kettle. I boil ~7.5 gallons (~7.7 gallons at boil temp.) down to ~6.6 cooled gallons, for an average boil off of ~0.9 gallons.
 
I think "Pilsner malt" in this context is too unprecise a definition.

I made my first all grain batch yesterday, the grist was composed of 6,5 kg of Pilsen malt, and my recipe instructed for the following mashing plan:

15' @ 55 °C
15' @ 59 °C
45' @ 63 °C
15' @ 70 °C
10' @ 78 °C

This is a typical mash plan for a Pilsner, and I bought the malt at the same shop which gave me the recipe, so I thought the malt and the recipe "matched".
But it wasn't so.

The malt is actually Malterie du Château CHÂTEAU PILSEN 2RP which has a Kolbach value of 35 - 45 and therefore is well-modified and can be mashed with the usual monostep schedule. The data sheet also says "ce malt est bien modifié et facilement empâté par infusion ou décoction. "
Technical data here: SPÉCIFICATION CHÂTEAU PILSEN 2RP 2019

Just as the mashing characteristics are not "Pilsen-like" while the name is, it may be that also the DMS characteristics are not what they might appear from the name, and that YPMMV.
 
Birrofilo said:
15' @ 55 °C
15' @ 59 °C
45' @ 63 °C
15' @ 70 °C
10' @ 78 °C

This is a typical mash plan for a Pilsner, and I bought the malt at the same shop which gave me the recipe, so I thought the malt and the recipe "matched".
But it wasn't so.
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That would have been a typical-ish mash schedule for a pilsner years ago, when pilsner malts tended to be under modified. It's very hard, if even possible, to find truly under modified pils malts today. In the US at least, you'd have to get them from a specialty "boutique" maltster. Some popular modern examples (of not under modified malts):

Weyermann Pils: 36-42.5
Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils: 38-44
Dingeman's Pilsen MD: 35-45
Briess Pilsen: 37

Are you finding under modified pils malts in Italy?
 
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The Swaen Pilsner malt I'm currently using specs a low p-DMS value of 5.0 max, and an SNR of 35-45.
 
VikeMan said:
Are you finding under modified pils malts in Italy?
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There probably are, because this recipe is dated 2019 and is prepared by Mostoitaliano (mostoitaliano.com) a professional brewer. I think they know how to interpret the Kolbach index and know the general mashing theory well.

The recipe is actually "branded" Polsinelli, a well-known shop for homebrewing and winemaking and other, and it is made "in collaboration with Mostoitaliano".

I was at Polsinelli shop when I was much greener than today, I was studying some recipes which were in the shop in form of leaflets. I got this recipe, Amnesia (Belgian tripel), and asked the clerck to give me the necessary, and he gave me a 25kg bag of that malt. I can't fault him, the recipe calls for "Pilsner malt" and the malt is a "Pilsner malt". The fault is in the recipe, which should specify a different mashing procedure if the malt is well-modified i.e. with a Kolbach index >= 35.

I do presume it is possible to find under-modified malts if not in the ordinary homebrewer's shops, at least in the professional trade. Or a brewer might have malt which is produced according to his own specifications.
 
Birrofilo said:
There probably are, because this recipe is dated 2019 and is prepared by Mostoitaliano (mostoitaliano.com) a professional brewer. I think they know how to interpret the Kolbach index and know the general mashing theory well.
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There are some brewers who still do protein rests even though they are not necessary and possibly detrimental, because they want to do a "traditional" process . Where does Mostoitaliano get their malt? Also, I would not assume that "professional brewer" equates to knowledge of protein modification. I would estimate that over half of the pros I know have heard the term, but don't really know what it means.

Birrofilo said:
I do presume it is possible to find under-modified malts if not in the ordinary homebrewer's shops, at least in the professional trade. Or a brewer might have malt which is produced according to his own specifications.
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I wouldn't presume that. Home brewers have been looking for under modified base malts for many years. If they were available in any sort of significant qtys, I presume they would have found them. It's what we do. If pros had them, we'd know. Let us know when you find something. If you do, I'm in for a sack.
 
Given that this topic started innocuously enough and is in the beginners forum, I wonder how many people got scared away with how complex this discussion has become 🤪
 
Some say that a base malt with an SNR (Kolbach Index) of ~35-37 will yield a beer with more mouthfeel than will the same malt if modified to an SNR of 43-45. And it is said that beer will be perceived to be excessively thin tasting if the index exceeds 45. Has anyone noticed if there is any truth to this for base malts at between 35 and 45?
 
mabrungard said:
Oh Dave, DMS is not a thing of the past. But you are correct that it is less of a problem.

As pointed out above, DMS can rear its head when your grist has a high percentage of pils malt in it. That's because very lightly kilned malt like pils, has more SMM in it. SMM creates DMS. That SMM has to be converted to DMS by heating it in the kettle and then boiling the DMS out of the wort. The good thing is that its very easy to get DMS out of wort with about 30 minutes of a rolling, uncovered boil. Note that I said rolling and not volcanic. As long as you can see that the wort is turning over in your kettle fairly quickly (say an inch per second), its good enough. Its the exchange with the atmosphere that controls how fast DMS is expelled into the steam.

It takes about 30 minutes of covered simmering to get a decent percentage of the SMM converted into DMS. The wort doesn't really have to be boiling since its the wort temperature and not the vigor or movement that controls the SMM to DMS conversion. But here is where temperature does have an effect on how long you may need to perform your 'boil' process. If you're brewing at high elevation, the temperature of your wort will be lower than if you were at sea level. For that reason, high elevation brewers may have to 'boil' for a longer time in order to produce adequately DMS-free beers when brewing with a lot of pils malt.

For most brewers, you're probably at well under 2000 ft elevation and you probably don't need to resort to boils over 60 minutes. Be aware that time and heat damage wort and that damage accelerates the time in which a beer presents oxidation or aging effects. If you're brewing a beer style (like barleywine) that depends on the 'aging' effects of a long boil, then by all means, continue your long boils. But if you're brewing a regular style that you want to not show aging effects, then I strongly recommend that you not boil too long.
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So, Martin...

To summarize the plethora of data in this thread (dare I say, "boil it down"...?), would you say that a post sparge/pre-boil 'rest' at >185F for :30 minutes to convert SMM, followed by a 'sufficient' boil (intensity and duration) is the key to reducing DMS? Post boil, rapidly cool the wort to <185F before any WP/hop stand to eliminate further SMM conversion?

If so I can see some significant benefit to a pre-boil pause @ 185F, then reducing the vigor and boil time of the wort to prevent Maillard reactions in my Continental lagers.

One related question: how much SMM is contained in either DME or LME, and can it (SMM to DMS conversion) be mitigated with an SMM 'rest' and rapid chill?

Many thanks to all. This is a great thread.

Brooo Brother
 
A local (within ~30 miles by road) Amish farmer grows and supplies "Sprouted Spelt Berries" to this regions various Amish bulk food stores, and on and off I've toyed with the idea of adding up to a pound of this local sprouted spelt to some of my beer recipes. Should I consider that a malted grain source such as this would likely be quite undermodified? I presume it is either merely air dried or perhaps (and at most) only minimally quasi-kilned. It may even have a bit of sprout chits still present.
 
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Silver_Is_Money said:
A local (within ~30 miles by road) Amish farmer grows and supplies "Sprouted Spelt Berries" to this regions various Amish bulk food stores, and on and off I've toyed with the idea of adding up to a pound of this local sprouted spelt to some of my beer recipes. Should I consider that a malted grain source such as this would likely be quite undermodified? I presume it is either merely air dried or perhaps (and at most) only minimally quasi-kilned. It may even have a bit of sprout chits still present.
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Now THIS is most likely undermodified, yes. Close to chit malt I'm sure. This could be an interesting experiment. Actually I have a little Mennonite store up the road with the same type of grain options and been thinking of doing something like this myself, one of these days.....
 
dmtaylor said:
Now THIS is most likely undermodified, yes. Close to chit malt I'm sure. This could be an interesting experiment. Actually I have a little Mennonite store up the road with the same type of grain options and been thinking of doing something like this myself, one of these days.....
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I don't know what chit malt is but I don't see why should those "Sprouted Spelt Berries" be undermodified. The modification is stopped by the application of heat. Until heat is applied, the germ goes on germinating. The process with which the malt is "killed" doesn't make it less modified. The producers might have waited actually more-than-usual before applying heat. If they merely air-dried the malt, then maybe the lenght of the process made the modification even greater.
 
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Silver_Is_Money said:
Some say that a base malt with an SNR (Kolbach Index) of ~35-37 will yield a beer with more mouthfeel than will the same malt if modified to an SNR of 43-45. And it is said that beer will be perceived to be excessively thin tasting if the index exceeds 45. Has anyone noticed if there is any truth to this for base malts at between 35 and 45?
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Really basic question here, but what is SNR?
 
Beer Viking said:
Really basic question here, but what is SNR?
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Soluble Nitrogen Ratio, i.e. the ratio of soluble nitrogen to total nitrogen. aka SN/TN. For practical purposes, it's the same thing as the Kolbach index.

ETA: Nitrogen and Proteins are basically used interchangeably in the ratios, because in malt, they amount to the same thing.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Some say that a base malt with an SNR (Kolbach Index) of ~35-37 will yield a beer with more mouthfeel than will the same malt if modified to an SNR of 43-45.
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Is this meant with the same mash schedule?
I begin getting quite confused about why should one perform a protein rest if he managed to find a malt with a Kolbach index of 34 or 33.

The answer would be: to transform long-chain proteins into short-chain proteins (which give chill haze problems and maybe long-term taste problems). But wouldn't long-chain proteins actually give mouthfeel and head retention, while short-chain proteins don't? 🤔
 
VikeMan said:
Soluble Nitrogen Ratio, i.e. the ratio of soluble nitrogen to total nitrogen. aka SN/TN. For practical purposes, it's the same thing as the Kolbach index.

ETA: Nitrogen and Proteins are basically used interchangeably in the ratios, because in malt, they amount to the same thing.
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Oh, MAN... I was flashing back to the old reel-to-reel tape deck days of the 70s when you had to have a separate Dolby noise reduction unit. As in: Signal-to-Noise Ratio. As Archie Bunker used to say, "Those were the days."
 
Brooothru said:
Oh, MAN... I was flashing back to the old reel-to-reel tape deck days of the 70s when you had to have a separate Dolby noise reduction unit. As in: Signal-to-Noise Ratio. As Archie Bunker used to say, "Those were the days."
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A dbx noise reduction unit coupled with a "metal" tape was the way to go 🎧
 
Birrofilo said:
A dbx noise reduction unit coupled with a "metal" tape was the way to go 🎧
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Yeah, man. I had a four track Teac deck 8" reel-to-reel and a four channel Dolby NRU. Four corners of the room were covered with 4 Klipsch folded horn speakers and 80 watts per channel (x4) pumped through a Pioneer amp. When the Doobie Brothers rocked out "Listen to the Music", the whole neighborhood DID!
 
60 minutes is the theoretical time that it takes to get the bitterness out the hops.

I would have said ime the reason for a 90 min boil it to make sure that you lose at least 1 gallon in steam.
 
Turricaine said:
I would have said ime the reason for a 90 min boil it to make sure that you lose at least 1 gallon in steam.
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Assuming no diacetyl concerns, why would you particularly want to lose at least one gallon of steam?
 

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