what is the best way to brew a big stout with soft water?

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BrookdaleBrew

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I want to brew a big stout but have extremely soft water. What is the best way to work around this? Should I add chalk or baking soda to my mash to up the alkalinity or should I just add the dark malt late in the mash and if so, how late?

Also, if I use chalk/baking soda, what are the proper preportions of each? 1 to 1 or what?

Water chemistry is confusing.
 
I want to brew a big stout but have extremely soft water. What is the best way to work around this? Should I add chalk or baking soda to my mash to up the alkalinity or should I just add the dark malt late in the mash and if so, how late?

Also, if I use chalk/baking soda, what are the proper preportions of each? 1 to 1 or what?

Water chemistry is confusing.

What are the numbers for your water?
 
http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Plug your numbers into that and adjust pH accordingly

you definitely want to drop that 8.98 into the 5 range

The problem is that when I use a lot of dark grain, it drops the pH too much and I get an almost sour tasting beer. For most beers I just use 5.2 stabilizer and they come out great. The only beers I have yet to perfect are big stouts because of this problem. The 5.2 doesn't really work with them (I've tried brewing them with and without the 5.2 and get the same results.)
 
You need to increase the buffering capacity(hardness) of your water. Figure out how to get your CaCO3 levels at least to 150ppm. I suggest using ezwatercalculator as well.
 
It is confusing...i also suggest the ezcalc ...bobby-M has great youtube videos that you should check out. Just search "bobby m brewing."

On a related note: Can one of you guys that suggested ezcalc explain why in the latest version the city profiles got dropped? Not sure how this would be an enhancement.
 
I have 7.8 pH water at my house, and my dark beers turn out great (and my lighter beers are too malty).

I would recommend that you drop the water to under 8, but probably no lower than 7.5 and you won't need to adjust the rest.

M_C

Calcium 8
Magnesium 3
Sodium 7
BiCarbonate 13
Sulfate 9
Chloride 4
Hardness (as CaCO3) 19
pH 8.98
 
The starting pH isn't really what you need to be worried about - the grains will have a much larger effect on the mash pH, and with soft water it's likely to end up too low with a lot of dark grains. As BenS said, you mostly need to get your bicarbonate level up - read the section in Palmer's How to Brew on water adjusment, then plug the numbers into the EZ water calculator or (my favorite) the Bru'n Water spreadsheet
 
As alluded to here, softness is not the problem. Its the inadequate alkalinity to balance the increased acidity of dark beer grists. That water is damn near the profile that my RO system puts out. If that's your tap water, my hat's off to you. That is a perfect palate to craft great brewing water. You will definitely need to have the capability to add alkalinity to your water if you're brewing anything but light colored beers.

Alkalinity is easy to add and a little more difficult to remove. Chalk is a so-so option for adding alkalinity since it needs to be dissolved prior to brewing. There are work arounds that mention using twice as much chalk as required since the evidence is that it only provides about half its calculated alkalinity. I think that EZ Water might assume this in their calculation. Bru'n Water calculates the full alkalinity that chalk will deliver if its fully dissolved. Palmer's spreadsheet also calculates the full alkalinity produced by the chalk addition. In using either of these programs, you just add twice as much chalk as calculated to try and provide the intended amount of alkalinity.

A better way of adding alkalinity is to use pickling lime since it dissolves totally in water. To my knowledge, only Bru'n Water includes the calculations for using lime. It will absolutely add the indicated alkalinity. Its very strong though and you should only add it to the mash since it will bump the pH of the mash water way up before you add the grain.

Baking soda is another option and it works well, but you have to avoid adding too much sodium to the water.

Be careful with any mention of your starting water pH. It means nothing. Just because the water has somewhat high pH, the lack of alkalinity will cause the pH to drop like a rock when any acid is added to the water.

Its interesting that 5.2 Stabilizer is mentioned. As AJ DeLange has mentioned, it doesn't work as intended. But in the case of this brewer's low alkalinity water, it will keep the pH from dropping too low. They should really call that stuff, 5.8 Stabilizer since that's the pH it will produce. That's too high for good brewing, but it is workable. I still recommend that you learn to properly adjust your brewing water with a good program like Bru'n Water.
 
On a related note: Can one of you guys that suggested ezcalc explain why in the latest version the city profiles got dropped? Not sure how this would be an enhancement.

The city profiles were dropped to reflect the shift in mentality that pH and other aspects are more important than raw cation/anion values. People were worried more about getting their values in line and neglecting mash pH and residual alkalinity. Additionally, those values were often misleading in that breweries frequently would adjust their "famous" water prior to brewing anyway.
 
That water is damn near the profile that my RO system puts out. If that's your tap water, my hat's off to you. That is a perfect palate to craft great brewing water.

In that case, you'd love the water here in Portland:
(mg/L or ppm)
Calcium (Ca) 2.0
Magnesium (Mg) 0.8
Sodium (Na) 3.2
Potassium (K) 0.2
Iron (Fe) 0.0
Nitrate (NO3) 0.2
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 13.3
Carbonate (CO3) 0.1
Sulfate (SO4) 0.0
Chloride (Cl) 3.1
Nitrite (NO2) 0.0
Fluoride (F) 0.0
Reported Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 11.0


There's a reason they say we have the best urban water in the country :mug: . I did find that once I went all-grain, I needed to add a bit of Calcium (Gypsum) in order to get decent conversion - and of course, some other stuff for darker beers...
 
As alluded to here, softness is not the problem. Its the inadequate alkalinity to balance the increased acidity of dark beer grists. That water is damn near the profile that my RO system puts out. If that's your tap water, my hat's off to you. That is a perfect palate to craft great brewing water. You will definitely need to have the capability to add alkalinity to your water if you're brewing anything but light colored beers.

Alkalinity is easy to add and a little more difficult to remove. Chalk is a so-so option for adding alkalinity since it needs to be dissolved prior to brewing. There are work arounds that mention using twice as much chalk as required since the evidence is that it only provides about half its calculated alkalinity. I think that EZ Water might assume this in their calculation. Bru'n Water calculates the full alkalinity that chalk will deliver if its fully dissolved. Palmer's spreadsheet also calculates the full alkalinity produced by the chalk addition. In using either of these programs, you just add twice as much chalk as calculated to try and provide the intended amount of alkalinity.

A better way of adding alkalinity is to use pickling lime since it dissolves totally in water. To my knowledge, only Bru'n Water includes the calculations for using lime. It will absolutely add the indicated alkalinity. Its very strong though and you should only add it to the mash since it will bump the pH of the mash water way up before you add the grain.

Baking soda is another option and it works well, but you have to avoid adding too much sodium to the water.

Be careful with any mention of your starting water pH. It means nothing. Just because the water has somewhat high pH, the lack of alkalinity will cause the pH to drop like a rock when any acid is added to the water.

Its interesting that 5.2 Stabilizer is mentioned. As AJ DeLange has mentioned, it doesn't work as intended. But in the case of this brewer's low alkalinity water, it will keep the pH from dropping too low. They should really call that stuff, 5.8 Stabilizer since that's the pH it will produce. That's too high for good brewing, but it is workable. I still recommend that you learn to properly adjust your brewing water with a good program like Bru'n Water.

Yeah, that is our water straight out of the tap. We have a local brewery that brews strictly german styles because our water is perfect for it. I can make a killer pils with no adjustments at all. Dark beers, not so much.

Thanks for all the feedback, I think I understand things a little better now. I will look for pickling lime. Where might I be able to pick something like that up?

I'm trying to get away from using the 5.2 because I've heard similar things about it not working exactly as it's supposed to elsewhere.
 
Pickling Lime is typically available as a home canning supply. Some grocery stores carry it. Walmart sometimes carries it seasonally. You can always get it online from Mrs Wages (google it) and you can also find it at Amazon.com. I'd look locally first and resort to mail order as a last resort.
 
In that case, you'd love the water here in Portland:
(mg/L or ppm)
Calcium (Ca) 2.0
Magnesium (Mg) 0.8
Sodium (Na) 3.2
Potassium (K) 0.2
Iron (Fe) 0.0
Nitrate (NO3) 0.2
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 13.3
Carbonate (CO3) 0.1
Sulfate (SO4) 0.0
Chloride (Cl) 3.1
Nitrite (NO2) 0.0
Fluoride (F) 0.0
Reported Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 11.0


There's a reason they say we have the best urban water in the country :mug: . I did find that once I went all-grain, I needed to add a bit of Calcium (Gypsum) in order to get decent conversion - and of course, some other stuff for darker beers...



yep...only problem is the chlorine.

cjb, what do you typically add for a stout...also relevant to the OP since it sounds like the 2 starting profiles are similar
 
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