What is Old Ale anyway?

[Joker_on_Jack]

I'm overdue for my first Old Ale and have some general questions that I couldn't quite find clarity on through searches, here we go.

My general recipe stands like this:
OG 1.089 (want the high end and aging)
FG 1.022
IBU 60
SRM 29
90min boil
EFF of 65%

14# Maris Otter
1# Special B
1# Briess Organic-C 120
1# Golden Naked Oats
1# Black Treacle

60min 1oz Challenger
15min 2oz Northern Brewer

WLP022 Essex Ale


First, the Black Treacle. I am pretty sure I want to use it but was also thinking dark Belgian candy, or brown sugar world work. I am a little worried that 1# may be a bit much treacle and that I should take it easy on this stuff, is this true? Also, what is a good estimate for color coming from black treacle, I calculated SRM using molasses, which I am guessing would be contribute less then the treacle would.

Second, the Essex Ale yeast. My "go to" is usually WLP007 and this seemed like a nice little variant of 007 with some nice fruit and bread notes. My concern would be that the Attenuation seems a little high for old ales. Should I be looking more in the direction of London, and if so what strain?

Third, the mash. I am guessing that if I really want to drive attenuation I should be looking at mashing in the 156F range. And of course my brewers bible (Ray Daniel's book) is telling me 155-158 for a good dextrinous wort. If i do this should I just go for the Essex or any reasonably high attenuation yeast then?

Last, do I oak this beer? I have 2 oz of french cubes that I started soaking in Woodford reserve 5 months ago and have not planed into a beer yet. Would this be a good application, for a short/subtle bourbon oaking?

Thanks:beard:

 

[dyqik]

I might be talking out of my arse here, as I haven't done much research on this, but I don't think bourbon barrel oak flavours have much place in English style beers. You might consider sherry or port barrel flavours (these would have been available to English brewers, at least), but generally English beers were not oaked (wooden casks and barrels were generally lined, and Old aging tanks were enormous, so the the surface area to volume ratio with very very low, even if they weren't lined). I've also never come across an oaked flavor in modern English beer, including commercially available Olds (Harvey's, Milton, several others).

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try it though, obviously, just that I'm not sure it's historically appropriate.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Agreed on the accuracy of the style. I may be just trying to squeeze them in because this beer will be taking up my long term secondary and I wont be brewing any aged beers for some time that I might oak. I do still like the idea of oaking this and my just buy some new cubes and steam them.

 

[dyqik]

You could split a gallon off to age separately, and oak that, and maybe sour/brett infect it as well. You can then sample it separately and blend it back into the main batch to taste.

 

[MikeFallopian]

Oak flavours would be wrong, in my opinion. The vinous flavours will come through aging the beer. Molasses may be a nice addition, however.

But, this is home brewing, so experiment with whatever you like!

 

[jsledd]

Oak aging may be wrong for the style, but it is delicious.

Straight to Ale's Unobtanium is a bourbon barrel aged Old Ale. There are other examples as well.

If you get too much oak, brew it again and blend the two batches.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I do have to admit that I felt a bit lost coming into this beer design. I usually know pretty precisely what I am designing for but I'm not sure on this one. I guess I was thinking that they would have aged Old Ales in oak barrels back in the day and that I would want that flavor in there some how. I keep thinking of how these barrels were taken for a "walk in the yard" to churn the yeast back up into the beer.

 

[giraffe]

Essex ale is great for old ales. You want a high attenuater. It shouldnt be super super heavy.

Old ales are a nebulous style, commercial examples are all over the place, from stock ales to burton ale, to english winter warmers, to strong bitters, and some called old ale. In general they should be aged. Bittered at 40-50+ Ibu (it will mellow with age) and be warming but not too heavy. Mostly Maris otter or a quality pale malt. Often a flavorful yeast.

Thats a ton of dark crystal. And the dark sugar is giving you color and burnt dark fruit character as well. Id cut the 2# of c120+ to a 1/2 lb or nothing. The golden naked oats is a light crystal with a berry like sweetness? Do you want this here?

Treacle is good, invert 3 is fine. Brown sugar wont give you the color or intensity. Belgian dark candi, is made from white sugar nor unrefined, and wont have the same flavor, but its better than brown sugar by far. It could work.

 

[JKaranka]

What giraffe says.

You can follow up old ale from stock ale in suabp. Back in the day most ales would have been aged, from vatted porter and stout to year old pale ale and aged stock. Stock ale would have been heavily hopped mild (when mild was pale). Lots of these beers had insanely high mash temperatures but reasonable or even very high attenuations mainly due to bugs in the vat.

Not sure if that helps, but I'd go for:
- OG between 1055 and 1100.
- Mainly pale malt and some invert or candi sugar.
- Fermented first with any reliable British yeast, then 6-12 months with Brett.
- Fairly high IBU as it will mellow.
- Dry hops.

The closest I can think of a modern old ale is Orval. I know it's Belgian, but it has all the traits of being influenced by the British old ales of when it was designed: Dry hops, good attenuation, aging, Brett, pale.

 

[JKaranka]

Check the recipe for 1887 Fullers XXK, that seems to fit the bill. It's in Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Best old ale I have ever had was Rosie's old ale from Barley Johns here in MN. I did want to hit on a similar flavor profile, but I am completely aware that I will fall well short of the 18% alcohol content that they boast.

That being said, lets talk about the recipe. I am not really trying to go by NHC guidelines but am trying to make a big red aged old ale. I did want to shoot for one yeast but it seems like I will need brett to get this right. I really don't want this to resemble a barley wine, I just bottled a Maris Otter and 3% crystal barley wine and want something different.

I am at 78% Maris Otter with 14lbs. I wanted to do an old ale with no roasted grains. The specialty grains are really hitting on the flavors that I want in the beer. These are from northern:

Organic C
120° L. Dark caramel malt made from organically-grown 2-row barley gives deep red color and pronounced caramel, burnt sugar, raisin, and prune flavor.

Special B
145° L. It imparts a heavy, dark caramel taste with more subtle notes of burnt sugar, raisin, and dark dried fruits such as cherries and plums.

Golden Naked Oats
10° L. Sweet berry-nut flavor. Use to add a deep golden hue, light caramel flavors, and a creamy, satiny finish.

So, caramel and a cornucopia of dark fruits flavors. I was trying to get the fruit flavors from the malts. With all of that crystal it should help (along with the mash at 156F) to keep the attenuation a little bit down (1.090 should not be to hard for a good British strain). If i do end up using brett I am guessing that might be overkill on the fruit flavors with the crystal but I am hoping that I wont need the brett in the first place.

Kind of feel like I'm talking in circles on this one, anyway let me know if I'm still crazy to put that much crystal in, I have never used that much but still think it might work.

 

[giraffe]

Depends what you want, but that sounds more like a contemporary american barleywine than an english old ale. When I think of old ales, i think of old peculiar, gales prize ale, thomas hardy, fullers vintage, robinsons old tom, etc. Most of them, except gales?, dont have too much sour/brett character of historical 1800 beers, but definately have an aged character. I dont make mine with brett; I dont like dealing with the stuff.

Anyway, to my conception, id mash on the low end, and use an attenuative flavorful yeast, and use dark sugar for 10% or so of the fermentables (and get the dark fruit from the sugar), and maybe a dash of dark malts for aging stability.

I imagine you are going to end up with a heavy dark beer, (I havent dont the math, but im guessing youd end up in the 1.030+ range) and it may be a fine sipper. Ive never had the MN brew you speak of, it may be close in concept.

 

[JKaranka]

Just to complicate things, how is that different from a burton ale? :-D I always considered Old Tom a mild and Old Peculiar a burton ale. Barleywine is just a more modern word for old ale anyway (that's probably because it dropped the aged, stale, Brett character).

 

[dyqik]

To throw even further confusion into the mix, the modern Old I'm familiar with is Harvey's Old XXXX, which is a thick crystal malty brew, but only 4.3% ABV and an OG of 1.044. Their bottled Old is even lighter, at around 3.8% ABV. Well below the usual style guidelines, and maybe more of an aged mild, but it's been brewed like that since at least 1952, when it won an award. Not sure how long they brewed it to that recipe before then.

I got a pre-release pin of it for my wedding, after another local brewery screwed up and lost our order for a cask of their Old.

 

[smokinghole]

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Old Ale

If you want to read about historic old ale and brewing records go there. Old ale was defined back in the day by its acidity mostly. It was aged in oak for long term producing acidity and brett character. The alternative is going with modern definition which is brownish, sweet, and moderately hopped.

 

[JKaranka]

dygik: and you know that XXXX denotes an imperial mild! Brilliant confusion! I would have rather expected it to be an XXXK or KKK that had dropped in gravity after the wars.

 

[giraffe]

Just to complicate things, how is that different from a burton ale? :-D I always considered Old Tom a mild and Old Peculiar a burton ale. Barleywine is just a more modern word for old ale anyway (that's probably because it dropped the aged, stale, Brett character).

Yeah, I was just talking about the modern conception, bjcp, whatever, that is anything stronger than an esb, and less strong than a barleywine, and definitively english. And often a winter seasonal, or aged. See my first post. And giving some broad advice on how to get there, and have it drinkable.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I am looking for a nice dexrinous wort and the more I think about it I will need brett yeast to finish it off for the acidity, dark fruit and port like character I'm looking for. I concede that I'm high on the crystal and will probably adjust as follows.

14# Maris Otter
2# Special roast
.75# Special B
.75# Organic C
1# Black Treacle

Probably mash a little high at 156F, ferment on Essex Ale and finish on Brett. I am a little concerned about going to far on Brett.

 

[smokinghole]

I brewed the 11-11-11 Old ale recipe in 2010 for 11-11-11 using Wyeast 9097 which is an english strain and their normal brett L or a strain of brett L from them. I mashed at 158F boiled the first 2 gal down to a very thick syrup and mine ended up fermenting to 1.015ish from 1.090ish. I forget the exact numbers. So if you want similar or higher you will need to bring your mash temp up a touch more, and consider boiling down a portion of the first runnings.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I brewed the 11-11-11 Old ale recipe in 2010 for 11-11-11 using Wyeast 9097 which is an english strain and their normal brett L or a strain of brett L from them. I mashed at 158F boiled the first 2 gal down to a very thick syrup and mine ended up fermenting to 1.015ish from 1.090ish. I forget the exact numbers. So if you want similar or higher you will need to bring your mash temp up a touch more, and consider boiling down a portion of the first runnings.

What is the breakdown on they yeast adds for this, wait till there is not activity form the english yeast then pitch the brett? Any guesses on the gravity reading in between the two adds if this was how you did it? Did you end up with a good fruit note?

 

[smokinghole]

The brett was in there from the beginning. I always add my brett and bacteria with initial pitches, what's the point of waiting until "secondary"? I homebrew to end up with beer, for the time consuming joy of making beer. I like to screw with it as little as possible beyond brewday and bottling/kegging. I'm not a fan of staged additions of yeast or other crap. Put it all in at once and let it rip. My experience with this brett is the sacch yeast will ferment down to between 60% and 70% with the brett going an additional 10-15% attenuation. The brett takes about 6-9 months to finish up and possibly a full year. I've been simply adding Safale S04 and then adding the brett that I've saved.

For some reason homebrewing has adopted this brett/bacteria only in secondary mentality. I can see it in a commercial setting where they want to keep their fermentors from having brett or bacteria in there (although they should be able to CIP effectively negating the issue), and then adding said microbes in barrels for more fermentation/aging. At home what's the difference? We're using the same vessels, what's the point of using a "primary" yeast and then a "secondary" yeast other than that's how some guys that wrote books and won lots of homebrew competitions did things.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I was thinking along the lines that if i wanted a hint of brett/bacteria that would allow the yeast to do as much as it could and die off, then come in to finish whats left. Essentially saving the complex sugars for the brett and maybe keeping the brett down to 5-10% attenuation. I have never used brett and do not know how long it takes to ramp up but I am sure that when it goes in it starts to consume sugars at some rate from the get go, some of those sugars could be processed by my ale yeast instead.

 

[smokinghole]

Brett is slow at reproduction compared to normal ale yeast. So if you want to do less work pitch together. You will still end up with pretty near the same result with less fuss. Do what you want though. I never split the pitch up. It all goes in a once for me because I'm lazy, and busy. I'm after the end product not something that constantly needs me to add more yeast or sugars. Brew, pitch, package, and consume. Keep it simple.