What is an authentic Berlinerweisse?

[signpost]

I've commented on this topic in another thread, but thought maybe a new thread was warranted. I've read a lot about people recommending the cleanest possible fermentation with lactobacillus, before finishing with saccharomyces. That idea just doesn't sit well with my impression of the origins of the style. And commercial examples of the style I've tried, that I assume are the result of super clean lacto fermentations, strike me as being very one-dimensional and not very interesting.

Thanks to Qhrumphf for providing this link to somebody digging around and finding historical information about the style. The author of this blog comments that any current iterations of this style are not very authentic to the style's origin.

A link in that blog led me to this.

And then a google scholar search led me to this.

I've read Wild Brews. I'm most of the way through American Sour Beers. And I'm confused by what seems to me to be an obsession with keeping a Berliner Weisse as clean as possible. The same people that advocate for harvesting wild local yeast and letting other sour beers sit and age to be used for blending even if they are undrinkable on their own, or pitching unidentified dregs from any random sour beer... Those same exact people get inexplicably squeamish about the idea of a sour mash.

Maybe it is because they used to recommend a sour mash and too many newbies screwed it up and talked crap about the technique and the people that told them how to do it?

Maybe the majority of people interested in brewing a Berlinerweisse are those that see it as a safer way to brew a sour beer. Rather than risking the introduction of Brett, Pedio, or other hearty or tough to eradicate bugs seems scarier than doing a quick-sour in a controlled environment followed by a short boil to kill all those bad bugs. A lot of commercial breweries that I've seen start to brew Berliners recently don't do any other sour beers. I take that to mean, they want to brew a sour, because people keep asking for it, but they don't want to risk contaminating their equipment and ruining their sacch-only beers and they don't want to or can't afford to have separate equipment or facilities dedicated to sour brewing. So then because the style is brewed by many beer-souring-microbe-averse brewers, the techniques that become standard/recommended focus on keeping it as clean as possible. (sidebar: what would happen if the majority of people brewing stouts really didn't like dark malts at all? or were worried that dark malts would permanently discolor their equipment?)

Anyway, is anybody else interested in what I think of as a more rustic, or possibly more authentic way of brewing a Berlinerweisse that might also produce a beer that has more character than the Berliners I've tasted from commercial breweries?

Anyone?

 

[mabrungard]

The unfortunate habit of some brewers to cultivate souring monocultures for brewing does not produce the complex flavors that I prefer in Berliner Weisse. Using a broad spectrum of organisms does seem to produce more interesting beers.

The German practice of running active saurergut fermenters for overall brewery usage makes it much easier to innoculate a batch of mash or wort AND lower the pH of that media which helps avoid unpleasant fermentation by-products such as butyric components. I expect that with the continuous operation of those saurergut fermenters, they would likely become 'contaminated' with a broad spectrum of low pH tolerant organisms. Those organisms are likely to produce more pleasant tasting components.

 

[Oldsock]

If there is any historic connection between Berliner weisse and sour mashing, I'm unaware of it... I've got no problem with funk, but most of the sour mashed beers I've tried (craft and homebrew) has a cheesy-footy aroma I can't stand (butyric, isovaleric whatever).

In American Sour Beer I suggest co-fermentation with neutral Sacch, Lactobacillus, and Brett (dregs, cultures, whatever you like). That's what has produced the best results for me including a couple medals. If you want a quick turn around I'd suggest souring the wort with a pure culture, you could follow that with 100% Brett if you wanted some good funk without too much of a wait. Good way to go if you want a really fruited/spiced/hopped Berliner.

Clearly every brewer figures out what works for their process and tastes. Agreed on most one-off Berliners are underwhelming. Now that we have 3000+ breweries in America, I'd rather see more specialization rather than everyone brewing mediocre everything!

 

[SpeedYellow]

There are very valid reasons for seeking a clean sour fermentation:

1) Generally, "clean" means mono-culture, which means predictable. "Rustic" and "funky" equate to higher risks of off-flavors since we homebrewers just don't have the established processes to get a low-risk consistent funk. Remember we're on the cutting edge of homebrewing here, so first targeting "clean" is perfectly rational.

2) When making a Berliner as a base for syrups or fruit beers, clean may fit the flavor profile best.

3) Personal preference.

I've only made a few Berliner's, so I'm not sure exactly how to achieve your "rustic" target. Will souring with 8 different lacto strains do it? Do you need pedio and brett? Beats me.

 

[mabrungard]

Now that we have 3000+ breweries in America, I'd rather see more specialization rather than everyone brewing mediocre everything!

Yep! I sure wish more breweries took that advice. Sure, every brewery needs to have a suite of beers to suit more tastes. But I would sure like it if they would concentrate very keenly on making those core beers the best they can be along with a few other seasonal styles (that are also well-tuned). I hate going to breweries that are constantly brewing something new and not doing it very well.

 

[iijakii]

Heh, around here everyone has a specialization -- 9 different versions of the same boring IPA.

 

[Oldsock]

Yep! I sure wish more breweries took that advice. Sure, every brewery needs to have a suite of beers to suit more tastes. But I would sure like it if they would concentrate very keenly on making those core beers the best they can be along with a few other seasonal styles (that are also well-tuned). I hate going to breweries that are constantly brewing something new and not doing it very well.

Certainly, no-one wants to be an Orval (although for a couple years The Alchemist wasn’t far off from being a one-beer brewery). I think variety is great, but I’d like to see it concentrated around an idea. Nothing wrong with putting out a new beer every week if it is the same IPA base with a new hop combo.

I really respect what Jack's Abby does with all lagers, you can have a big roasty Baltic porter, a dry hopped pale lager, or a session beer, but there is a cohesion. Same goes for places that focus on culinary beers, hoppy beers, foraged beers, sour beers etc. you can have a wide range without being all over the map.

I think more breweries need to accept that they don’t need to brew a beer for everyone. Even if you’re a brewpub, bring in some guest taps so you don’t have to keep some bland “entry-level” beer on tap.

 

[signpost]

If there is any historic connection between Berliner weisse and sour mashing, I'm unaware of it... I've got no problem with funk, but most of the sour mashed beers I've tried (craft and homebrew) has a cheesy-footy aroma I can't stand (butyric, isovaleric whatever).

In American Sour Beer I suggest co-fermentation with neutral Sacch, Lactobacillus, and Brett (dregs, cultures, whatever you like). That's what has produced the best results for me including a couple medals. If you want a quick turn around I'd suggest souring the wort with a pure culture, you could follow that with 100% Brett if you wanted some good funk without too much of a wait. Good way to go if you want a really fruited/spiced/hopped Berliner.

Clearly every brewer figures out what works for their process and tastes. Agreed on most one-off Berliners are underwhelming. Now that we have 3000+ breweries in America, I'd rather see more specialization rather than everyone brewing mediocre everything!

Thanks for the perspective. If anybody around here would know about an historical connection between sour mash and Berlinerweisse, it would probably be you. I guess my main frustration comes from the lack of historical context for the style. Other than the little bit I've read so far from the Shut Up About Barklay Perkins blog, I haven't seen much of anything about the style's origins or history or even signs that people might care about that aspect of the style. In your book, you focused mostly on the methods you mentioned here. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I don't remember much in there about the history of the style. If I remember correctly, you started the book off saying you weren't going to focus on the history of sour beers much, but rather on the brewing techniques and other technical aspects of the beer. So, you definitely nailed that. And I love the book, even though I stalled out at the chapter about barrels and such at the start of the new school year (I'm a teacher).

From what I can tell, Berlinerweisse came darn close to being not only extinct, but also forgotten. And now there is an influx of breweries trying out the style. I've come to expect some sort of historical context to emerge in various corners of the beer world when a style makes a comeback or somehow becomes popular enough for a bunch of breweries to try their hand at it. But with Berlinerweisse that either hasn't happened or I haven't looked in the right corners (math joke?) of the beer world to scratch the itch I'm feeling for more information about the style.

Maybe the style really was close enough to being forgotten that their isn't enough of a record of the style or brewing techniques anywhere to piece together a picture of its origin or any clear parameters of authenticity.

Who knows?




ipe:


No, really. Do any of you know?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks for the perspective. If anybody around here would know about an historical connection between sour mash and Berlinerweisse, it would probably be you. I guess my main frustration comes from the lack of historical context for the style. Other than the little bit I've read so far from the Shut Up About Barklay Perkins blog, I haven't seen much of anything about the style's origins or history or even signs that people might care about that aspect of the style. In your book, you focused mostly on the methods you mentioned here. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I don't remember much in there about the history of the style. If I remember correctly, you started the book off saying you weren't going to focus on the history of sour beers much, but rather on the brewing techniques and other technical aspects of the beer. So, you definitely nailed that. And I love the book, even though I stalled out at the chapter about barrels and such at the start of the new school year (I'm a teacher).

From what I can tell, Berlinerweisse came darn close to being not only extinct, but also forgotten. And now there is an influx of breweries trying out the style. I've come to expect some sort of historical context to emerge in various corners of the beer world when a style makes a comeback or somehow becomes popular enough for a bunch of breweries to try their hand at it. But with Berlinerweisse that either hasn't happened or I haven't looked in the right corners (math joke?) of the beer world to scratch the itch I'm feeling for more information about the style.

Maybe the style really was close enough to being forgotten that their isn't enough of a record of the style or brewing techniques anywhere to piece together a picture of its origin or any clear parameters of authenticity.

Who knows?




ipe:


No, really. Do any of you know?

I've found routinely, particularly with English beer but also with German beers like Berliner, Ron Pattinson (the guy behind that blog) digs up accurate history where no one else has the will to do so, and in doing so destroys a lot of commonly held myths. So if anyone is going to have the info you want, he will. And if the information is out there, eventually he'll find it.

As for me, I have never liked the pure lacto culture Berliners that I've tried (both mine and others), although they are certainly better than the simple acid/sauermalz ones. I've liked either mixed culture (which I haven't brewed, just sampled others), or grain-inoculated (which is what I do in the mash, but no reason it wouldn't work for kettle souring too). Seems to me to be a little more complex, which seems to be what you're going for. And through careful monitoring of temp, dropping the pH to <4.5 prior to inoculating, and keeping O2 out, I'm able to keep em free of the enteric stuff. Butyric and isovaleric acid are awful, awful flavors and aromas (try doing the Siebel flavor kit, those samples may make you vomit at the concentrations they're at, and if you've had a sour mash go wrong you'll recognize them immediately), and it makes me furious to taste them in commercial sours.

 

[patto1ro]

Thanks for the perspective. If anybody around here would know about an historical connection between sour mash and Berlinerweisse, it would probably be you. I guess my main frustration comes from the lack of historical context for the style. Other than the little bit I've read so far from the Shut Up About Barklay Perkins blog, I haven't seen much of anything about the style's origins or history or even signs that people might care about that aspect of the style. In your book, you focused mostly on the methods you mentioned here. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I don't remember much in there about the history of the style. If I remember correctly, you started the book off saying you weren't going to focus on the history of sour beers much, but rather on the brewing techniques and other technical aspects of the beer. So, you definitely nailed that. And I love the book, even though I stalled out at the chapter about barrels and such at the start of the new school year (I'm a teacher).

From what I can tell, Berlinerweisse came darn close to being not only extinct, but also forgotten. And now there is an influx of breweries trying out the style. I've come to expect some sort of historical context to emerge in various corners of the beer world when a style makes a comeback or somehow becomes popular enough for a bunch of breweries to try their hand at it. But with Berlinerweisse that either hasn't happened or I haven't looked in the right corners (math joke?) of the beer world to scratch the itch I'm feeling for more information about the style.

Maybe the style really was close enough to being forgotten that their isn't enough of a record of the style or brewing techniques anywhere to piece together a picture of its origin or any clear parameters of authenticity.

Who knows?

ipe:

No, really. Do any of you know?

Brewing techniques of Berliner Weisse forgotten? It's one of the best documented German beer styles.

Sour mashing has never been used in Berlin for Berliner Weisse, as far as I'm aware. There are two methods: symbiotic lactobacillus and saccaromyces fertmentation; separate lactobacillus and saccaromyces fertmentations. The latter is the method used for Kindl.

In the symbiotic method, multiple strains of lactobacillus were in the pitching culture. And somewhere along the line Brettanomyces got involved.

There's more to the history and production method have changed a few times over the centuries. I've posted a lot about Berliner Weisse this year:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.nl/search/label/Berliner Weisse

 

[Oldsock]

In your book, you focused mostly on the methods you mentioned here. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I don't remember much in there about the history of the style. If I remember correctly, you started the book off saying you weren't going to focus on the history of sour beers much, but rather on the brewing techniques and other technical aspects of the beer. So, you definitely nailed that.

Exactly, if you want a book that is more about culture/history then Stan's Brewing with Wheat is a good place to start. It covers gose, Berliner weisse, and some more obscure styles. I've just never been a nerd for history in the way I am for process and production. Likely some interesting techniques to be gleaned from historic brewing, but I'll leave the research to Stan/Ron and co.!

 

[signpost]

Brewing techniques of Berliner Weisse forgotten? It's one of the best documented German beer styles.

Sour mashing has never been used in Berlin for Berliner Weisse, as far as I'm aware.

Well, I guess I just have more homework to do. I definitely plan on digging through your blog. The little bit I've read so far has been interesting.

And Oldsock, thanks for the recommendation of the Wheat Beer book. The AHA Malt, Yeast, and Water books are next on my reading list, but I'll definitely have to get to the Wheat book.

 

[orangehero]

Certainly, no-one wants to be an Orval (although for a couple years The Alchemist wasn&#8217;t far off from being a one-beer brewery). I think variety is great, but I&#8217;d like to see it concentrated around an idea.

That's a weird example because Orval is unique, world-class, and very successful. To be like Orval is rarely attainable even if everyone wanted to. I would gladly welcome more breweries like that.

My impression is that this is more of an American brewer's issue, where they try to do a lot of different things, most come out mediocre, so to stand out they have to go extreme. I've had some Berliners where instead of going complex, they go extra sour, to the point where I couldn't even have another pint.

I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I think Mosher's Radical Brewing had some good info on Berliners also.

 

[Oldsock]

That's a weird example because Orval is unique, world-class, and very successful. To be like Orval is rarely attainable even if everyone wanted to. I would gladly welcome more breweries like that.

That's actually sort of what I meant. Most brewers don't want to brew a single beer, even if that would mean better results (also hard to make ends meet with only one beer in a crowded market). Just like homebrewers, craft brewers get bored of brewing the same recipe over and over again. As a beer drinker, I&#8217;d love to see that sort of dedication from American breweries that you see from, Urquell, Girardin, Rodenbach, Schlenkerla etc. where they make a single beer, or several slight variations of the same basic concept.

Not to say any brewery would automatically make beer that well if they picked one style and stuck to it, but it would certainly help. It takes decades of specialization to get those sort of results. It requires specializing everything about your equipment, process, ingredients etc. rather than having to compromise on everything. I&#8217;m working with a brewery that wants to do a saison and a wit with the same strain, you can do that, but you&#8217;ve got to compromise on one or both!

 

[patto1ro]

Well, I guess I just have more homework to do. I definitely plan on digging through your blog. The little bit I've read so far has been interesting.

And Oldsock, thanks for the recommendation of the Wheat Beer book. The AHA Malt, Yeast, and Water books are next on my reading list, but I'll definitely have to get to the Wheat book.

I should have mentioned that a lot of the material on Berliner Weisse is only available in German, which I realise is an obstacle. I've translated texts when I can to make them more accessible. I should collect everything into a book, really. I've already got the core of it in the form of the text from my talk on Berliner Weisse.