What has greatest effect on Tannins

[Morkin]

I've noticed tannins a lot more in my recent beers, as I've shifted from darker beers to lighter beers. (ie American Light Lager and Munich Helles).

My latest Helles has some tannin taste to it. Sort of astringent taste. It's not terrible, but it does overshaddow the grainy bready flavor I was looking for.

What is the greatest contributor to tannin. Is it the crush, ph, or something else I"m not considering?

I have not tested my water or mash ph, and I am using a corona mill to mill my own grains. I also am brewing 10 gallon batches, could I be oversparging? Any help would be great. Thanks.

 

[LVBen]

Temperature and time. High temperatures over a long period of time. Dark grains typically give off more tannins than base grains.
I've heard that steeping the dark grains (not mashing them) can reduce the amount of astringency in dark beers.

 

[Zamial]

Temps are a huge thing. Anything over 169F will start to extract them.

Squeezing the grain bag CAN extract them as well.

 

[cmoon]

Yes, temperature. I was using the standard floating thermometers until I trashed a couple batches because the little piece of paper inside shifted (I must have knocked the thermometer around at one point), and ended up mashing at something like 170.

Ordered a thermapen the next day. Spoke with a brewing friend of mine, who is very exacting and precise, and he quickly found out he had the same problem (though to a lesser degree). Thermometers (especially those floating varieties) seem to be an obvious weak link, especially if your getting astringent/tannin flavors.

How is your final gravity coming out? That's another clue.

 

[mabrungard]

Temperature is the primary culprit. Elevated mash pH and high alkalinity water can also increase tannin extraction.

 

[Morkin]

I have something similar to this drilled into my mash tun.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewpot-dial-thermometer.html

Most of my brews are at about 150 for 60 min. But my mashout water was near boiling temperatures to raise my mash temp to 170. Should I mash out and sparge with lower temperatures or perhaps skip the mashout all together?

 

[cmoon]

I have something similar to this drilled into my mash tun.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewpot-dial-thermometer.html

Most of my brews are at about 150 for 60 min. But my mashout water was near boiling temperatures to raise my mash temp to 170. Should I mash out and sparge with lower temperatures or perhaps skip the mashout all together?

I know that's a much higher quality thermometer, but can you calibrate it?

 

[Morkin]

Maybee. I think it calibrates like a meat thermometer with rotation of the screw underneath...

 

[BigEd]

I've noticed tannins a lot more in my recent beers, as I've shifted from darker beers to lighter beers. (ie American Light Lager and Munich Helles).

My latest Helles has some tannin taste to it. Sort of astringent taste. It's not terrible, but it does overshaddow the grainy bready flavor I was looking for.

What is the greatest contributor to tannin. Is it the crush, ph, or something else I"m not considering?

It's elevated pH levels.

I have not tested my water or mash ph, and I am using a corona mill to mill my own grains. I also am brewing 10 gallon batches, could I be oversparging? Any help would be great. Thanks.

If you are brewing all grain lagers and do not know your water profile you are doing yourself and your beers a great disservice. Because you say this is now more of a problem moving from dark beers to light ones it sounds likely that your water has levels of alkalinity that are creating too high of a pH. This is of particular trouble when sparging as the temperatures rise and the runoff dilutes further pushing the pH out of the proper region.

Get a detailed water report. If your supplier cannot provide one send a sample to Ward Labs. Then do some reading in a good homebrewing book and also read the many topics and posts here at HBT in the Brewing Science section. Making the necessary adjustments to your brewing water is usually not that difficult and it will improve your beers.

 

[remilard]

I don't know about temperature, I mean you can boil the the mash for 40 minutes and not have an astringent beer.

 

[trigger]

BigEd hit it.

It's chemistry in action! The dominant factor in the solubility of tannins in brewing is going to be pH. This however is not to neglect activity of temperature, though. If the pH of the liquid phase of your mash is too high you will extract tannins, regardless of temperature or activity (within reason). A pH meter can be helpful in this regard, but better is a water report and planning ahead. Adjust your mash pH to the proper level (I'm talking within reason, you don't need +/- 0.001 accuracy here) and monitor your sparge pH. You can use a variety of buffers to stabilize that pH, and there are spreadsheets available in the brew science forum to assist you.

Temperature will help, and so will using softer water, but they won't make up for pH correction.

If you really want to get into it, all 3 factors can be combined, however working with either very soft or deionized water and building it appropriately coupled with following the general temp guidelines will get you 99% of the way to where you need to be.

 

[wolfman_48442]

BigEd and trigger are spot on.
I was brewing stouts and big IPAs that tasted awesome, but my delicate beers were always too bitter.
After getting my water report (water is pretty hard), and taking corrective action for mineral content and PH - per batch/beer style - all of my beers are just night and day more delicious.
Oh, and I BIAB and squeeze the <bleep> out of the bag too

 

[nefarious_1_]

PH agreed.

Perfect temperatures do nothing without perfect PH!

A solid PH will even give you more wiggle room for temperature swings. Not to say you shouldn't worry about temperature, it's an important part of the process, but if your PH is stable the mash will be much more forgiving in regards to temperature.

 

[Denny]

Temps are a huge thing. Anything over 169F will start to extract them.

Not if your pH is in line. Ever heard of a decoction mash, where you boil the grain? Tannins are not a problem because the pH is well under 6.

 

[Morkin]

Ok. Since it's probably the PH of my water, seeing how I have never checked it, how does one go about checking the ph of my water? PH strips?

 

[Morkin]

Here is a report from my local municipality, but I don't think it gives me what I need....

http://www.hermannmo.com/test/drinking-water-report.php

 

[Denny]

Here is a report from my local municipality, but I don't think it gives me what I need....

http://www.hermannmo.com/test/drinking-water-report.php

That's pretty much worthless for brewing. Go to www.wardlab.com and get test W-6 for $16.50. That will give you all the info you need. If you tell them you're a homebrewer, they have special info available. I used colorpHast pH papers for years to test pH. Don't get the cheapo paper strips. A meter is great (I use one now), but can be expensive.

 

[Bobby_M]

Combination of wardlab report and a pH meter (or colorpHast narrow 4-7 strips). You may end up needing to cut your tap water with distilled.

 

[LVBen]

Gordon Strong recommends using RO water and then adding in whatever you need. Usually just a couple of grams of calcium chloride for the mash and 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of phosphoric acid into the sparge for most styles. (5 gallon batch)

 

[Morkin]

So I can't use an aquarium test kit to get PH and alkalinity tests?

 

[Denny]

So I can't use an aquarium test kit to get PH and alkalinity tests?

Maybe