What are the keys to a sweeter beer? Yeast starter or not?

[nigel31]

Okay, so my friend and fellow brewer calls me "Cloyboy." My taste buds dictate--for better or for worse--that I enjoy only beers on the sweeter side, and the sweeter (or more cloying/less balanced) the better. If I could brew Coke or Pepsi (or malta) and call it beer, that'd be what I'd brew.

My (almost) apologies, but I simply don't like bitter tastes or hoppy flavors.

That said, I use mainly WLP002 (English Ale) and WLP028 (Edinburgh Ale) yeasts from White Labs; I brew English/Scots ales that are way on the malty/sweet side--but I've only brewed a few times thus far and am just getting into partial mashing. I'm not against adding a ton of maple syrup or English syrups (like treacle) to my brews.

I've always done starters (big, healthy, stir-plated ones), but my friend suggests that perhaps I simply pitch my liquid yeast into the carboy on brew day without building up a massive amount in a starter; figures that, with that many less yeast in there, I'd end up with a higher final gravity and much more residual sugar left around (for me to drink).

This make sense to anyone? Any other things (besides mashing at higher temps) that you can suggest to make my beers as sweet as possible?

I'm all ears, but don't need to hear that I should brew "balanced" beers; my taste buds simply don't like beers that aren't SWEET. I took to brewing so that I can brew my own "cloybrews," and would appreciate any advice/suggestions to this end.

Thanks very much.

 

[nigel31]

Okay, so my friend and fellow brewer calls me "Cloyboy." My taste buds dictate--for better or for worse--that I enjoy only beers on the sweeter side, and the sweeter (or more cloying/less balanced) the better. If I could brew Coke or Pepsi (or malta) and call it beer, that'd be what I'd brew.

My (almost) apologies, but I simply don't like bitter tastes or hoppy flavors.

That said, I use mainly WLP002 (English Ale) and WLP028 (Edinburgh Ale) yeasts from White Labs; I brew English/Scots ales that are way on the malty/sweet side--but I've only brewed a few times thus far and am just getting into partial mashing. I'm not against adding a ton of maple syrup or English syrups (like treacle) to my brews.

I've always done starters (big, healthy, stir-plated ones), but my friend suggests that perhaps I simply pitch my liquid yeast into the carboy on brew day without building up a massive amount in a starter; figures that, with that many less yeast in there, I'd end up with a higher final gravity and much more residual sugar left around (for me to drink).

This make sense to anyone? Any other things (besides mashing at higher temps) that you can suggest to make my beers as sweet as possible?

I'm all ears, but don't need to hear that I should brew "balanced" beers; my taste buds simply don't like beers that aren't SWEET. I took to brewing so that I can brew my own "cloybrews," and would appreciate any advice/suggestions to this end.

Thanks very much.

 

[RDWHAHB]

You can add lactose or cold crash.

 

[kwantam]

Underpitching can lead to somewhat lower attenuation, but can also give you more off flavors. It's also very hard to predict how much less attenuation you'll get.

You might consider stopping fermentation with potassium sorbate when the beer has reached an acceptable FG. This will require force carbing, since the yeast will be unable to process priming sugar.

You could also add lactose to your beers. Since it's unfermentable, it'll leave the final product sweet.

If you're in an experimental mood, you might try growing several generations of yeast in starters that have only corn sugar in them. Most of the time people are warned against this because it will make "lazy" yeast, but in your case a few generations down the road you may well have selected for a yeast that ferments simple sugars quickly but is poor at fermenting the rest, leaving your beers as underattenuated as you'd like.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Your friend is wrong. Yeasts multiply before they start anaerobic fermentation to produce alcohol, so by pitching only the vial you risk getting off flavors or a stuck fermentation, but not more residual sugar.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

There was no need to double post this question.

 

[RDWHAHB]

I agree that it is a bad idea, but the result of a stuck fermentaion is a sweeter beer, no?

 

[KYB]

Big beers, lots of crystal malt, and lactose would be very sweet. I would rather do so by the recipe rather than stressing the yeast.

 

[mojotele]

I guess it depends on what you define as "sweet." If you detect a strong ester profile as sweetness, then underpitching will give you a strong ester profile and you should try it. It will not necessarily affect your attenuation, however. That is highly dependent on the health and type of the yeast you are pitching.

As far as actually getting more sweet sugars in the beer post-fermentation, mash higher with your partial mashes (156-158*F) and use lots of crystal malt. That will actually increase the amount of non-fermentable sugars. Also, reducing your bittering hops will increase the sweetness without actually adding more unfermentable sugars.

 

[jmo88]

Okay, so my friend and fellow brewer calls me "Cloyboy." My taste buds dictate--for better or for worse--that I enjoy only beers on the sweeter side, and the sweeter (or more cloying/less balanced) the better. If I could brew Coke or Pepsi (or malta) and call it beer, that'd be what I'd brew.

My (almost) apologies, but I simply don't like bitter tastes or hoppy flavors.

That said, I use mainly WLP002 (English Ale) and WLP028 (Edinburgh Ale) yeasts from White Labs; I brew English/Scots ales that are way on the malty/sweet side--but I've only brewed a few times thus far and am just getting into partial mashing. I'm not against adding a ton of maple syrup or English syrups (like treacle) to my brews.

I've always done starters (big, healthy, stir-plated ones), but my friend suggests that perhaps I simply pitch my liquid yeast into the carboy on brew day without building up a massive amount in a starter; figures that, with that many less yeast in there, I'd end up with a higher final gravity and much more residual sugar left around (for me to drink).

This make sense to anyone? Any other things (besides mashing at higher temps) that you can suggest to make my beers as sweet as possible?

I'm all ears, but don't need to hear that I should brew "balanced" beers; my taste buds simply don't like beers that aren't SWEET. I took to brewing so that I can brew my own "cloybrews," and would appreciate any advice/suggestions to this end.

Thanks very much.

I wouldn't mess with pitch rate to try to achieve higher FG's. That will cause more problems than it's worth. I would suggest trying to understand what it is you like about sweeter beers rather than thinking about it as strictly a FG thing. For instance, maybe the bittering to gravity ratio that you prefer is lower on the bittering side. Maybe you can manipulate the beers profile by adjusting the chloride to sulfate ratio of your water. Mashing higher will give you longer chain sugars and using lower attenuative yeasts will help you achieve a sweeter beer. Adding most syrups will actually give you a drier beer; crystal malt would be a better choice. Under-attenuation is not a good thing and even though you say you like sweet beers, I think you can probably find what you are after without trying for under-attenuation.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Read and develope an understanding regarding;

1. Mashing for fermentability or, in your case, non-fermentability.

2. Yeast attenuation performances (although not gospel they do give a nreasonable expectation)

3. Use of non fermentable sugars.

4. BU:GU ratios and hop rates.

and try lots of DFH beers. Sam has this down pat.

 

[doctorRobert]

Mash high, use non & fermentable sugars, and use low attenuating yeast.

What's your favorite commercial beer?

 

[businesstime]

Under-attenuated beers taste like ass, not sweet. Always let the yeast do their job and stick with a healthy starter. If you want "sweeter" tasting beers, brew beers that are that style. A few suggestions to alter your sweetness: (1) Adjust your hop quantities so there is less bitterness; (2) Use malts that produce residual sweetness like Crystal and Honey malts; (3) use lactose, which is sweet and unfermentable. I get the feeling, you'd be more happy drinking sweeter stouts and porters.

 

[mojotele]

By the way, I'm not sure if one could find them in NJ, but if you can find any beers made by DuClaw (a Maryland brewery/restaurant) they may appeal to you. I swear they use at least 30% crystal malt in almost every beer they make. Just sickeningly sweet.

Some of their beers are better balanced but, man, most of them are just ridiculously sweet.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Adding caramel malts will add sweetness to your beer. They come in a large variety of colors and will add sweetness to the final product.

Also, you can cold crash your beer to get it to finish high. You have to watch the gravity like a hawk though.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Also, you can cold crash your beer to get it to finish high. You have to watch the gravity like a hawk though.

Only useful if you keg. can be dangerous if you do not.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Only useful if you keg. can be dangerous if you do not.

True, very true.

 

[soundsandsuds]

Pitch a yeast with a lower attenuation rate, like Danstar Windsor, Wyeast 1318 or 1968 . A stuck fermentation can restart after adding priming sugar, resulting in bottle bombs.

 

[electric_beer]

Adding caramel malts will add sweetness to your beer. They come in a large variety of colors and will add sweetness to the final product.

This can help.

If it was me, I'd mash at around 158, use at LEAST a pound of Crystal 60 or higher and/or use something like Windsor yeast. I've been told that Windsor is NOTORIOUS for flocking out and quitting early. However I might not use all 3 techniques because perhaps you'll go overboard on the sweet, or maybe you'll LOVE it.

My roommate prefers a malt-monster beer so I make Northern Browns for him and he LOVES it. The trick is late hop additions.

Oh yea and there is always lactose, the unfermentable sugar.

 

[nealf]

Cut your 60 minute hop additions all the way or at least by half. That should get you where you want to be. Don't mess with the yeast, keep them healthy... your recipe is what you need to adjust.

 

[nigel31]

Mojotele,

Interesting you'd answer, as the brew that spawned this question is a slightly modified version of your partial mash wee heavy (in the Recipes section under Kiltlifter). Didn't use smokes/peated malt, used Simpson's chocolate instead of black patent, used light roasted barley, and used a can of Lyle's golden syrup and half a can of Lyle's black treacle. Mashed at the high end, and used WLP028 (Edinburgh ale yeast). Got 71% attenuation, on the low end for that yeast after a big yeast starter. Seems like I'm doing everything right, no? How'd that wee heavy come out for you? On the sweeter side? Mine's only a week or so in the primary, but I tasted it and it wasn't nearly as sweet as I'd hoped for.

Would you suggest lactose or maltodextrin maybe in the secondary?

Those DuClaw brews do sound right on for me. Totally unbalanced and sweet at hell.

For those who answered, I've brewed Scotch wee heavies (two now), a chocolate raspberry sweet stout, a London brown (sweet brown ale), and also a sweet version of a red ale (for my lovely wife). I use English/Scottish yeast and use East Kent Goldings or Fuggles (low-alpha hops) and in minimal doses (e.g., 1 oz. at 60 minutes and no more).

Any further suggestions?

Really--thanks a lot.

 

[nigel31]

@ReverseApache: Thanks for the input, but I've gotten totally different people/answers from posting here in the Yeast/Ferm section.

@Several of you: lactose is certainly a possible, as is maltodextrin--thanks. Has anyone here added lactose to the secondary? It's often done (and I've done it in the past) in the boil. I'd rather do it prior to bottling/priming time if possible.

@doctorRobert: I did mash high (it's my first partial mash, a wee heavy), did use (fermentable) sugars in Lyle's golden syrup (1#) and Lyle's black treacle (.5#), but haven't added any unferms yet. Willing to do that, though. My yeast is WLP028 (Edinburgh ale yeast, a lowish attenuator). I usually use this one or, my fave, WLP002 (a super-high-flocculating, low-attenuating yeast). And my fave brew is J.W. Lees Harvest Ale, 2001 vintage. Anyone who's tried that'll know that I dig stuff syrupy sweet. Thanks for asking, and for your input.

@A couple of you: Unfortunately, I don't have the means/fridge space to either cold crash or to force carb.

@NealF: I do generally use 1 oz. of East Kent Goldings at 60 minutes and no other additions. I'm trying to get it sweet, I really am.

Cheers, all.

 

[mojotele]

Hey, pretty cool! Glad my conversion could be of use to you. My brew of that was very well received by friends and family. It was a tad on the sweeter side, but it certainly wasn't cloyingly sweet. It was comparable to other Wee Heavy beers in that regard. Since you like really sweet beers, you probably wouldn't have thought it was sweet at all, which seems to be your assessment.

Maltodextrin will just add body to your beer, but no sweetness. Lactose will sweeten things up a little. You can experiment with that. Pull a cup or two of your beer and add lactose to it bit by bit until you reach the desired sweetness. Then just do the math to figure out how much you'd have to add to the whole batch. The only problem here is getting the lactose to dissolve. You may have to heat up a small volume of water, add the lactose to the water, cool it, then add the water to the beer bit by bit. Then do the math and add a water/lactose solution to your beer when you bottle/keg.

For example:

I have 5 gallons and 2 cups of beer in the fermenter (I know, it just makes the math easier)
I pull 2 cups of beer out
I heat 3 tablespoons of water in the microwave and dissolve 1 tablespoon of lactose in it
I add 1 tablespoon of water to the beer, not sweet enough
I add another tablespoon of water to the beer, just right
So, I added 2 teaspoons (2/3 of a tablespoon) of lactose to 2 cups of beer to get the desired sweetness, or 1 teaspoon per cup of beer
There are 80 cups in 5 gallons of beer, therefore I need to add 80 teaspoons of lactose or 26 tablespoons and 2 teaspoons (it would probably be easier to weigh your lactose)

I totally made up those numbers, but you'd want to use as little water as possible to avoid watering down the beer as you are trying to sweeten it.

I think we've covered all the possible ways to sweeten up your beer by now. A lower attenuating yeast is another good suggestion. You should definitely not try to encourage a stuck fermentation.

 

[nigel31]

@mojotele: Very cool idea, my man, and I'll try it. So doing this at bottling should to it, eh? Alright, I'm down. Remember that "cloying" to everyone else is not over-the-top to me. Someone asked about the beers I'm into: J.W. Lees Harvest Ale (circa 2001), Southern Tier Choklat, Creme Brulee, and Mocha Stouts, AleSmith Wee Heavy, Thomas Hardy's Ale, Dieu Du Ciel Equinoxe du Printemps, DFH WorldWide Stout, Mackeson's XXX Stout, McEwan's Scotch Ale (can't get it anymore, though, sadly), and other wee heavies on the sweeter side.

Doesn't HAVE to be cloying to someone else in order for me to like it (it's honestly not a point of pride with me), but I enjoy sweet to sweeter (to sweetest) beers, so that's what I'm looking to brew.

Will definitely try the lactose tip you've provided, and thanks a bunch.

As for yeasts, the ones I use are on the lowest end of the attenuation scale already.

Cheers for the help and for the recipe. I'm sure it'll be wonderful.

 

[Pappers_]

Wanted to be sure that the earlier suggestions regarding using larger amounts of crystal malts didn't get lost. Tried and true method for increasing sweetness.

 

[nigel31]

Thanks, Pappers. I added .60# of Crystal 60 to this brew; would you suggest that I bump it up to 1# even? And how about increasing the LME/DME for it?

I know that the latter would up the ABV, but I've no problem with that. To me, as long as I enjoy it, it can be 2.5% or 10.5% ABV.

Or are you only suggesting the upping of the crystals in the mix?

Thanks!

 

[Pappers_]

If you like sweet to the point of cloying, you can go much higher on the crystal malt. Maybe try a couple of pounds and see how you like it?

 

[user 53515]

I'm with you nigel. I like a bit of a sweeter beer so more non-beer drinkers can enjoy a pint or two.

The last few AG recipes I've done, I upped the crystal malt a bit and substituted a lower attenuating yeast strain than that which was suggested in the recipe. I try to stay within style, but a tad sweeter.

Upping the crystal malt and the lower attenuating yeast helped on both my oktoberfest and my pumpkin spice ale.

Haven't bottled my smoked porter yet, but I did up the crystal 40 by about 25%. We'll see how it goes.