what am I doing wrong?

[AZWyatt]

I've had like four batches that I don't want to share with anyone because they've all got a serious cardboard taste to them. I used to be using the Mr Beer fermenter as my primary, then 'racking' (without tubing) to 1-gallon jugs as my secondary. That went very well for the first two batches, then the beer started to develop that cardboard taste so I went to the standard 5-gallon setup with 5-gal glass carboy secondaries. I now use tubing for all my racking as well.

And now that I've done that, I STILL have a cardboard taste in my beer. I even got a bottle filler to avoid aeration during bottle filling. I figured that, with the bottle filler, I could set the bottling bucket spigot on full-blast while bottling. Is this a mistake? Do most of you all set the bottling bucket spigot to a very low setting when bottling to avoid aeration? Do most of you pinch the tubing while racking to secondary to make sure the turbulence doesn't aerate it?

Or is it even an aeration issue? Could I be over-aerating when I pour my cooled wort into my primary? Could I be introducing too much air when I rack to the secondary? I make sure the tube is submerged as soon as there's enough beer in the secondary to submerge it. I just don't know what else I could be doing wrong! Could that taste be due to an infection? It doesn't taste sour, like most infections do, just heavily cardboard-y.

PLEASE HELP! I seriously don't want to explain to my friends again why I'm not sharing any of my beer with them.

 

[Biermann]

Hmm. . .sounds like a good case of oxidation to me.

First off, ditch the Mr. Beer. Invest in a carboy or BB. Then get an autosiphon.

As a general rule, rack with minimal disturbance, and bottle with a low flow. The more turbulance, and the faster the flow, the higher the risk of oxidation.

If you have a carboy, you could eventually even invest in a carboy cap, a CO2 tank, and transfer under CO2, which would virtually eliminate the problem.

Anyway, take a look at your procedure--I'm sure you're introducing way too much Oxygen/Air during racking and bottling.

Cheers.

 

[brewt00l]

First off, ditch the Mr. Beer. Invest in a carboy or BB. Then get an autosiphon.

...so I went to the standard 5-gallon setup with 5-gal glass carboy secondaries.

OP: How long are the bottles sitting before they develop the off flavor?

If your first 2 batches in the mr.beer didn't have this flavor then the next 2 did, what changed? What does this have in common with the 2 off flavored batches in the new gear?

 

[malkore]

on my bottle bucket, I only open the spigot about 60-70%

any more and I feel like I'm aerating the first inch of beer in each bottle.

also what are you using for a sanitizer?

 

[AZWyatt]

Hmm. . .sounds like a good case of oxidation to me.

First off, ditch the Mr. Beer. Invest in a carboy or BB. Then get an autosiphon.

As a general rule, rack with minimal disturbance, and bottle with a low flow. The more turbulance, and the faster the flow, the higher the risk of oxidation.

If you have a carboy, you could eventually even invest in a carboy cap, a CO2 tank, and transfer under CO2, which would virtually eliminate the problem.

Anyway, take a look at your procedure--I'm sure you're introducing way too much Oxygen/Air during racking and bottling.

Cheers.

I've already ditched the Mr. Beer--that's why I'm confused--even with a bottling bucket, glass secondary carboy, autosiphon, tubing and a bottle filler I'm still getting the cardboard taste.

How do you rack with minimal disturbance? The beer flows freely and fast when I rack it. What can I do to counteract that? I just bought a CO2 tank for kegging, so I'll definitely rack under CO2 next time.

During bottling, I figured that the bottle filler would take care of the oxidation problem and I could open up the spigot full-blast. I guess that wasn't a good idea. I'll put it at about 2/3 of full blast next time (or I'll just go to kegging).

Thanks for the help, guys!

 

[brewt00l]

How do you rack with minimal disturbance? The beer flows freely and fast when I rack it. What can I do to counteract that? I just bought a CO2 tank for kegging, so I'll definitely rack under CO2 next time.

During bottling, I figured that the bottle filler would take care of the oxidation problem and I could open up the spigot full-blast. I guess that wasn't a good idea. I'll put it at about 2/3 of full blast next time (or I'll just go to kegging).

Thanks for the help, guys!

I bottle with the spigot wide open and a wand...no issues with oxidation to date.

What about the questions I posed?

 

[AZWyatt]

OP: How long are the bottles sitting before they develop the off flavor?

If your first 2 batches in the mr.beer didn't have this flavor then the next 2 did, what changed? What does this have in common with the 2 off flavored batches in the new gear?

The off flavor isn't present when I'm bottling so far as I can tell, but it's there as soon as carbonation develops, 1-2 weeks later. I suppose this would indicate that the aeration is happening during bottling.

I'm not sure what changed. Hardly anything, really. The only thing I can think of for sure is that, at first with the Mr. Beer, I used filtered tap and store-bought water. I changed to filtered tap and reverse-osmosis water with added yeast nutrient when the cardboard taste popped up, but I have no idea how that would possibly affect it.

As for sanitizer, I was using One Step. This last batch I used One-Step for the tubing and autosiphon and used iodophor for the fermenters.

 

[gman]

How are you cleaning the bottles?

Are you just rinsing really well and then sanitizing (works if you rinse as soon as you use the bottle)? Or are you washing them with soap of some kind?

What color are the bottles? Etc etc...

 

[AZWyatt]

How are you cleaning the bottles?

Are you just rinsing really well and then sanitizing (works if you rinse as soon as you use the bottle)? Or are you washing them with soap of some kind?

What color are the bottles? Etc etc...

The bottles I just rinse really well right after using, then drain and keep on the bottle tree until I sanitize and re-use. As for the carboys, I rinse, rinse thoroughly with soap, scrub if necessary, rinse again and then sanitize. The bottles are mostly amber, a few green. No difference in taste between the colors.

 

[brewt00l]

The off flavor isn't present when I'm bottling so far as I can tell, but it's there as soon as carbonation develops, 1-2 weeks later. I suppose this would indicate that the aeration is happening during bottling.

I'm not sure what changed. Hardly anything, really. The only thing I can think of for sure is that, at first with the Mr. Beer, I used filtered tap and store-bought water. I changed to filtered tap and reverse-osmosis water with added yeast nutrient when the cardboard taste popped up, but I have no idea how that would possibly affect it.

As for sanitizer, I was using One Step. This last batch I used One-Step for the tubing and autosiphon and used iodophor for the fermenters.

If the brewing water is the only variable that corresponds to the flavor change, the first thing I would do is brew a batch with store bought spring water w/o the nutrient. If the taste goes away, you have found the answer.

It sounds like your santization techniques are prb up to par. I used onestep for a while but got tired of the cost & switched to starsan.

 

[Yooper]

The last question that comes to mind for me is the racking technique. You say it flows fast. That's ok, but I was just wondering about it. Do you use an autosiphon or a racking cane to start the siphon? Is the tubing long enough to go to the bottom of the receiving carboy and gently transfer? I lay my tubing on the bottom of the carboy or bucket in a little circular way and it gently swirls into the receiving vessel.

I've accidently splashed though and had no off flavors. I'm thinking it's got to be a water issue. Maybe the ph of the water is wrong, or the water is too soft? I'm reaching here, but that's the only thing I can think of.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I doubt it's aeration, after reading your procedure. I bottled my beer without a bottle wand always, I just poured it in out of the tube and I never had aeration issues.

I also rack from primary to secondary with a cane, but the first gallon or so falls into the bucket because my tube doesn't quite hit the bottom. Still no aeration issues here. I think it takes quite a bit of work to get aeration issues.

How are you sanitizing? Are you using the same extract form a bulk order or new extract every time? New yeast everytime, or from a bulk order? Are you steeping your grains at too hot of a temperature or for too long? What are you using to prime your beers with before bottling?

 

[AZWyatt]

If the brewing water is the only variable that corresponds to the flavor change, the first thing I would do is brew a batch with store bought spring water w/o the nutrient. If the taste goes away, you have found the answer.

It sounds like your santization techniques are prb up to par. I used onestep for a while but got tired of the cost & switched to starsan.

...which is exactly what I just did!!! Wow, it's like I read your mind or something.

The last question that comes to mind for me is the racking technique. You say it flows fast. That's ok, but I was just wondering about it. Do you use an autosiphon or a racking cane to start the siphon? Is the tubing long enough to go to the bottom of the receiving carboy and gently transfer? I lay my tubing on the bottom of the carboy or bucket in a little circular way and it gently swirls into the receiving vessel.

I've accidently splashed though and had no off flavors. I'm thinking it's got to be a water issue. Maybe the ph of the water is wrong, or the water is too soft? I'm reaching here, but that's the only thing I can think of.

I used to use a racking cane, but I just changed a couple batches ago to the autosiphon, and it still produced the off-flavor. The tubing is long enough to reach the bottom of the carboy.

None of the guys at my LHBS have said anything about pH of the water here being off. I guess I should get some pH strips and check it, just to be sure. Tucson and Phoenix water is notoriously hard. Even when I used a combination of filtered tap and distilled water I kicked it up with some yeast nutrient.

I doubt it's aeration, after reading your procedure. I bottled my beer without a bottle wand always, I just poured it in out of the tube and I never had aeration issues.

I also rack from primary to secondary with a cane, but the first gallon or so falls into the bucket because my tube doesn't quite hit the bottom. Still no aeration issues here. I think it takes quite a bit of work to get aeration issues.

How are you sanitizing? Are you using the same extract form a bulk order or new extract every time? New yeast everytime, or from a bulk order? Are you steeping your grains at too hot of a temperature or for too long? What are you using to prime your beers with before bottling?

I'm using a new extract every time, who knows how old the extract is when I get it from the LHBS. About half the time I use new yeast, the rest of the time I'm reculturing it. I steep the grains at almost exactly 150F for however long the Clone Brews book says to (20 min for extract, 90 min for partial mash). Sometimes the temp goes a little high, but I check it fairly frequently and it never goes over 170F for more than a minute or two.

One thing I've been thinking--perhaps my carboys are being exposed to a little bit of indirect UV from my windows. No sunlight ever directly reaches my carboys, but should I be concerned about indirect light?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Is it a glass carboy or a better bottle? If its a better bottle search over for any little scratches that could contain bacteria.

 

[brewt00l]

...which is exactly what I just did!!! Wow, it's like I read your mind or something.

Great minds and all that!

Sweet...now you will either be able to eliminate a variable or identify the source when this batch hits the bottles.

 

[AZWyatt]

Is it a glass carboy or a better bottle? If its a better bottle search over for any little scratches that could contain bacteria.

All glass.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Man, I just don't know. Does any of your brewing equipment have rust on it? This is quite the oddity.

 

[AZWyatt]

Man, I just don't know. Does any of your brewing equipment have rust on it? This is quite the oddity.

The container in which I kept the One Step that I sanitized my Mr Beer fermenter with was starting to develop a little rust, so I threw it out. But that was many batches ago.

As strange as it may seem, I think it was the reverse-osmosis water that I got from my next-door Circle K. I'm pretty sure I didn't use it for my pumpkin ale three batches ago, and it didn't have the cardboard taste. I used store-bought spring water for this current batch and it we'll see what happens. I'll keep you all posted on any developments.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

awesome! :rockin:

 

[macs]

The simplest thing to do, is go back to the water you started with and make a batch. If it's good, you found the problem. Since beer is made up of mostly water, it's not that suprising that it could affect the flavor of the beer.