What am I doing Wrong? Why is it all foam?

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Beardofgandalf

Beardofgandalf

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Moderator's Note:
For those already familiar with this thread, the OP has added more info on the foaming problem, plus an image of his dispensing system in post #9:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/what-am-i-doing-wrong-why-is-it-all-foam.726815/post-10254369

Hey all, complete beginner here. I'm experimenting with doing a Iced Oolong+hops non-alcoholic combo. So, I'm hot steeping my oolong tea, bringing it down to about 36-38, than throwing in hop pellets and leaving to steep overnight at 38. I'm then transferring the whole mixture into a 1 gallon mini keg system (linked below), and force carbonating to 25psi.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/complete-one-gallon-mini-keg-system
I really like the flavor of what's coming out, but the problem is that it's usually almost all foam, and I'm having a hard time keeping the mixture carbonated. I later learned about balancing my line, so I changed the line in the keg to 9ft of 3/16" ID, but my resultant mixture is still really foamy and not carbonated enough. Am I carbonating at too high of a PSI? Or should i lengthen my line more?


Thanks so much in advance!
 
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day_trippr said:
Welcome to the forums at HomeBrewTalk :mug:

9 feet of 3/16" ID beer line would be perfect for up to 10-11 psi of CO2 pressure, but you're way over that.
So try one foot of your 3/16" line for each PSI of CO2 pressure you're using on the keg.
Or use this calculator to find the optimum line length...

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Super helpful, thank you!

Quick question, right now the line connects directly to the picnic tap and is inserted inside the keg itself, so I've been trying to coil as much of the tubing as I can inside the keg itself, if i push up to 26ft, and there's 26 feet of line inside a tiny one gallon keg, will that mess up it's flow?
 
Beardofgandalf said:
so I've been trying to coil as much of the tubing as I can inside the keg itself, if i push up to 26ft, and there's 26 feet of line inside a tiny one gallon keg [...]
Click to expand...
Why coil up inside the keg? There won't be much volume left for your tea.

The serving line usually goes between the keg-out post/connection and the faucet or picnic tap. You should coil it up and keep inside the fridge (or kegerator) together with your mini-keg. Using thinner line, such as 2 or 3mm ID, will provide more restriction so you can use a shorter length.
 
IslandLizard said:
Why coil up inside the keg? There won't be much volume left for your tea.

The serving line usually goes between the keg-out post/connection and the faucet or picnic tap. You should coil it up and keep inside the fridge (or kegerator) together with your mini-keg. Using thinner line, such as 2 or 3mm ID, will provide more restriction so you can use a shorter length.
Click to expand...
The system i bought came with a dispensing lid, so the faucet is attached to the lid of the keg itself so there's nowhere for me to put the line except inside the keg. I guess I'll have to buy a separate lid that will take a picnic tap
 
Beardofgandalf said:
The system i bought came with a dispensing lid, so the faucet is attached to the lid of the keg itself so there's nowhere for me to put the line except inside the keg. I guess I'll have to buy a separate lid that will take a picnic tap
Click to expand...
Thanks, that explains why coiling it inside the keg.

I wonder if you can use thin (1-2mm ID) PE line, similar to what connects your fridge's water spigot and ice maker to the domestic water supply. You wouldn't need as much length while the walls are much thinner than beer line.

Connecting that "water" line to your keg faucet may need some (light) engineering, though.
 
IslandLizard said:
Thanks, that explains why coiling it inside the keg.

I wonder if you can use thin (1-2mm ID) PE line, similar to what connects your fridge's water spigot and ice maker to the domestic water supply. You wouldn't need as much length while the walls are much thinner than beer line.

Connecting that "water" line to your keg faucet may need some (light) engineering, though.
Click to expand...
Ohh interesting, I'll look into that!

Do you think I'm carbonating too high? I figured that what i'm making would be similar to a hard seltzer of sorts so I was thinking i should carbonate to at least 30psi?
 
Beardofgandalf said:
Do you think I'm carbonating too high? I figured that what i'm making would be similar to a hard seltzer of sorts so I was thinking i should carbonate to at least 30psi?
Click to expand...
30 psi is seltzer territory, sure.
And to keep carbonation in solution, thus prevent foaming while dispensing, it needs much resistance in the line and faucet.

Can you post a link to your mini keg?
Or perhaps post some pix of the faucet and how the line is hooked up, also inside the keg?
 
Moderator's note:
The following post is a reprise by the OP, offering more info and clarifications of the problem he's having with excessive foaming. It also shows a picture of his kegerator setup.
The old (original) thread from April 9 was merged into this new one (May 1). Everyone is now on the same page again. Literally!

Hello all, as the title suggests, I need help understanding and fixing why my pours are coming out as basically all foam. So right now, I’m trying to make a combination of tea, and hops (kind of like Hoplark), and trying to carbonate it at high pressure, I’m talking borderline painful levels of pressure, old school can of coke make your eyes squint levels of pressure, I’m just a fiend for fizz… But the problem is, whenever I try to dispense, my first pour comes out okay, and then suddenly, it’s all foam coming out of the line, and the whole line just becomes foam.

I’m force carbing at 25 psi, and serving at 25 PSI as well. I have about 26 feet of 3/16 ID tubing, and I’m, dispensing from a standard picnic tap, these are my suspicions about about what’s going wrong, but I would love some guidance and help diagnosing the problem before going off and purchasing even more stuff.

  • I originally thought the problem was my line wasn’t long enough for the PSI i was trying to carbonate at, thus the 25 feet of line.
  • I thought it was possible that there was too much fine hop particulate in my hop tea and that it was causing excessive nucleation at high PSI? I’m straining through a fine mesh bag but it can’t seem to capture all the hop matter from the hop pellets I’m using. Ordered a finer strainer to see if that will fix the problem
  • I’m wondering if the problem is the picnic tap itself? Is the fact that I’m dispensing at such a high pressure a problem for the picnic tap and do i need a dispenser? But the foam seems to start further down in the line, rather than just coming out of the tap foamy.
I’ve attached a photo of my current temporary set-up. (Redline is my gas tubing, clear line is my keg tubing). If I can get this to work, then I was planning on building a proper kegerator or something to dispense pours.

Thanks in advance!
 

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Hmm, I was thinking the picnic tap as well but if it's foaming further inside the line then it sounds like it's still a straightforward pressure issue. I am thinking you should check your line to be sure it's the diameter you believe it to be, and next up to (sorry to say) replace it with something even smaller if it truly is. I think I can just make out 3/16 on it in the bottom right corner, but at a glance it looks bigger to me.

You might also want to look into some sort of flow control tap. It would be tricky to adapt it to the end of a really long line but it can certainly be done. The idea is that they can somewhat mimic the effect of having a longer line.
 
Have you been keeping the whole setup in your "kegerator" as you're showing?
What temp is it inside the kegerator? Is the beer in the mini-keg at the very same temp?
 
mashdar said:
Have you tried dispensing at 30 psi? (Getting pretty high!)

What kind of dip tube? Any filter?
Click to expand...
Not sure about the kind of diptube, it came with the mini keg, I think it's just like a foot of 3/16ID tubing that goes straight down from the lid. No filter, where would I put one (total newbie here)
 
IslandLizard said:
Have you been keeping the whole setup in your "kegerator" as you're showing?
What temp is it inside the kegerator? Is the beer in the mini-keg at the very same temp?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's just the fridge space on my sandwich unit (I own a cafe), I think it should be about 37-38 in the fridge, I haven't tempes the liquid in the mini keg, but it should be, it's stored at the same temp while dry hopping, then transferred to the keg, and I let it settle after force carbing for 24 hours in the fridge so I assume that would.be enough time for everything to equalize for temp?
 
tracer bullet said:
Hmm, I was thinking the picnic tap as well but if it's foaming further inside the line then it sounds like it's still a straightforward pressure issue. I am thinking you should check your line to be sure it's the diameter you believe it to be, and next up to (sorry to say) replace it with something even smaller if it truly is. I think I can just make out 3/16 on it in the bottom right corner, but at a glance it looks bigger to me.

You might also want to look into some sort of flow control tap. It would be tricky to adapt it to the end of a really long line but it can certainly be done. The idea is that they can somewhat mimic the effect of having a longer line.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure where the foaming starts but after my first pour the line will suddenly fill with foam as I dispense a second one, and the rate that it comes out suddenly sky rockets and comes out MUCH faster.

I've double checked my order and the tubing it says 3/16, I'll try breaking out a ruler to be sure.
 
some of the mini kegs have a silicone tube that slips on a nipple for a dip tube, gas/co2 can enter at that connection if it is not clamps or cinched down some how. I used a zip tie and a more snug fitting silicone tube. (I had issues at 10-12psi)
 
ba-brewer said:
some of the mini kegs have a silicone tube that slips on a nipple for a dip tube, gas/co2 can enter at that connection if it is not clamps or cinched down some how. I used a zip tie and a more snug fitting silicone tube. (I had issues at 10-12psi)
Click to expand...
This sounds like it might be mine, let me take a photo of it when I get to work later today!

So, in theory there shouldn't be a problem dispensing at 25 psi on a standard plastic picnic tap? Or is that still a poor idea?

Also is 25 psi even high enough to achieve what I'm going for? Or do I need to push even higher...?
 
Oh. I misread the original posts.

If the tube is in the keg, it could be collapsing from negative pressure. IDK why it would affect the second pour and not the first, though. How long between pours?
 
Beardofgandalf said:
This sounds like it might be mine, let me take a photo of it when I get to work later today!

So, in theory there shouldn't be a problem dispensing at 25 psi on a standard plastic picnic tap? Or is that still a poor idea?

Also is 25 psi even high enough to achieve what I'm going for? Or do I need to push even higher...?
Click to expand...
I would assume you can use a standard picnic for 25PSI, but for pouring beer at 10psi you need to make sure the tap is fully open to work correctly, no foam.

37F and 25psi would give close to 4volumes of CO2 and that looks like the top end of the soda recommendations.

There is a soda section here and see a few post regarding serving high carbed soda. Here is one but it is not clear he solved his problem
Evabarrier line length for soda

Personally I would start at a lower carb level and lower line length and get that working first before pushing to higher levels to make sure you don't have fundamental problem with your keg. Maybe start lowering your pressure to see if there a pressure level you can get a non foamy pour with your current setup.
 
I'm attaching photos of my dip tube/keg lid, as well as a video of my pour.

I forgot to take a video of my first pour but that one came out nice but started spitting foam at the end, you can see the residual foam in the line at the start of the video, but prior to my first pour the line was just filled with liquid.

The second video is me releasing all the pressure from my keg, wasn't sure if it was relevant so I'm including it....

And I included photos of my dip tube/keg lid as well.
 

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mashdar said:
Oh. I misread the original posts.

If the tube is in the keg, it could be collapsing from negative pressure. IDK why it would affect the second pour and not the first, though. How long between pours?
Click to expand...
They're pretty much one right after the other, right about the tail end of my first pour is when I start getting foam in the lind
 
The problem is inside the keg. Still.

Either your keg is almost out of beer and you're sucking foam, or CO2 is being injected into the beer flow before it leaves the keg...

Cheers!
 
Try a clamp on the dip tube hose. There is not much room so I used a zip tie.

Disassemble the beverage disconnect and post assemble and look for stuff stuck in the popette spring.

The dip tubes only needs to be long enough to reach the bottom, if it too long it might turn upward and cause you to not get everything out of the keg.
 
That's what I initially thought, but it's been doing this since I first kegged and it was a full keg...
day_trippr said:
The problem is inside the keg. Still.

Either your keg is almost out of beer and you're sucking foam, or CO2 is being injected into the beer flow before it leaves the keg...

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I guess it could be an issue with the dip tube.
 
mashdar said:
Could the dip tube be kinking? That would exacerbate any seal issues at the top of the tube.
Click to expand...
I dont think the dip tube is long enough to kink, unless somehow the pressure from dispensing is causing the diptube to kink? I can try trimming a bit more of the dip tube off to make sure. Would it better to try and upgrade to something more solid?
 
ba-brewer said:
Try a clamp on the dip tube hose. There is not much room so I used a zip tie.

Disassemble the beverage disconnect and post assemble and look for stuff stuck in the popette spring.

The dip tubes only needs to be long enough to reach the bottom, if it too long it might turn upward and cause you to not get everything out of the keg.
Click to expand...
That makes a lot of sense, I did wonder whether or not the fitting on the tube was tight enough for the nipple on the lid, but it didnt come with any clamps or anything so I just figured it was fine, i'll try using a zip tie for my next attempt.

Will try disassembling the bev disconnect to see if there's anything in there that could be causing issues!
 
I'm leaning towards Co2 leaking into the path of the beverage at the tubing to nipple joint (many have said try to secure it). Also look for slits or cracks. Lastly, it can be a leak where that diptube meets the underside of the liquid male QD. I have see this several times. The oring seals the post so no liquid leaks out, but it lets CO2 into the liquid stream. The most common reason is that the oring is a bit too small, but several other times I found the poppet spring threaded between the diptube and the oring. If you haven't taken the posts (male liquid QD) apart ever, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
Bobby_M said:
I'm leaning towards Co2 leaking into the path of the beverage at the tubing to nipple joint (many have said try to secure it). Also look for slits or cracks. Lastly, it can be a leak where that diptube meets the underside of the liquid male QD. I have see this several times. The oring seals the post so no liquid leaks out, but it lets CO2 into the liquid stream. The most common reason is that the oring is a bit too small, but several other times I found the poppet spring threaded between the diptube and the oring. If you haven't taken the posts (male liquid QD) apart ever, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...
Yes, I do have no idea what this means, that I'll google how to take a quick disconnect apart. I'll try using a ziptie on the nipple joint and if that doesn't work, I'll try taking apart the quick disconnect and take photos if I can't figure out via google what it means for a poppet spring to be threaded between the diptube and oring. Thanks for the suggestions and knowledge!
 
In case you haven't looked yet, the quick disconnect (QD) on the keg has a small metal piece (poppet) in the center of the top. The poppet has an o-ring gasket (rubber loop around perimeter) and a spring that forces it shut. The other half of the QD has a pin to displace the poppet and open the QD to flow.
 
Okay, today I reloaded the keg, checked all my connections, trimmed my diptube in case of kinks, ziptied the dip tube to the nipple of the lid, used a finer strainer and now have the whole thing sitting in the fridge, I'm skipping force carbonation and will just wait about a week and check in with you all. If my issues persist I will look up how to disassemble my QD and check the poppet. Thanks everyone!!

Random question, should I not connect my beverage line until I'm ready to drink? I noticed it immediately fills with liquid...
 

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