Water ph

[chrispy321]

Hi guys, my tap water ph is 8. Should I reduce this for the mash or is it ok, also what are the risks to the brew with a bad ph..

 

[schmurf]

I think you have to provide more information about your water, alkalinity for example, and what kind of beer you like to brew. But apart from that, a lot of people brew without water treatment and are happy with their brews.

 

[chrispy321]

I am just going off my water quality reports, and wandered if it was fine to just carry on making pale ale.

 

[RM-MN]

The pH of the water doesn't really matter, it is its ability to resist the grains ability to decrease the pH for the mash which depends on the alkalinity of the water. You really need more information or be willing to experiment using a pH meter and acid to adjust the mash pH. Note that the pH will be changing during the mash so you need the pH reading about 15 minutes into the mash but that conversion will be happening all during that 15 minutes and may be well up on completion by the end of that time. Take notes on the mash pH, then adjust the next time to hit your expected pH. The best is to get a water report and make mineral adjustments prior

 

[chrispy321]

Thanks for that reply

 

[Dgallo]

As stated earlier, the ph of your water itself isn’t very important. It’s the amount of bicarbonate you have in your water and your specific grainbill that will determine what your mash ph. Both of these will have an effect on how much, if any, ph adjustments will be needed. My tap ph is 7.2 but I have 128 ppm of bicarbonate so for light beers I always need to use acid in my mash. But for dark beers, with 5-8% roasted grains I typically don’t have to adjust but for bigger stouts I have to add baking soda to bring the ph up

 

[pondjt]

I would strongly recommend not doing anything .. yet.

If you want to really get into it. The Kaminski/Palmer Water book is an excellent resource. You’ll also need a testing kit and a pH meter. Utility water reports are not reliable for brewing.

Basic rule is if you water is good to drink, it’s good to brew. That being said, I believe if you wish to follow the rabbit down the hole, you can noticeably improve your beers.

 

[Mikey B]

And that hole is deep and Very, very long.

 

[Jim R]

Brewing water adjustments isn't rocket science. Anyone willing to take 2-3 hours to educate themselves can learn the simple steps to improve your beers. Then all it takes is a home water analysis and some cheap water addition chemicals. I didn't even need to pay for a water analysis because I use bottled water that has a water analysis published online (since my home water is lousy).

I started out by John Palmer's chapter on water analysis in his Homebrewing book (not his later and more complex water book) and then studied all of his online resources and pretty quickly learned enough to do this well. I now use his water adjustment spreadsheet (or one of the other excellent online calculators) and the adjustments are very easy. On my last beer, the only adjustment that was required was some cheap gypsum. It is worth taking some time to learn this.

https://sites.google.com/view/eljogbodrm/john-palmer-water-profile-spreadsheet

 

[VikeMan]

^ I like everything about this post! Except... Palmer's pH calcs were primitive by today's standards. There are better models now.

 

[Big Monk]

As stated earlier, the ph of your water itself isn’t very important. It’s the amount of bicarbonate you have in your water and your specific grainbill that will determine what your mash ph. Both of these will have an effect on how much, if any, ph adjustments will be needed. My tap ph is 7.2 but I have 128 ppm of bicarbonate so for light beers I always need to use acid in my mash. But for dark beers, with 5-8% roasted grains I typically don’t have to adjust but for bigger stouts I have to add baking soda to bring the ph up

Just a bit of a nitpick but the Source pH is a factor in the mEq contribution of the alkalinity of the source water, of which bicarbonate content is a proxy value. Since the QAlkalinity (mEq) is pH dependent, it’s a factor in the charge balance/equilibrium of the mash and should be considered.

I do agree, however, that if your source happens to be RO/Distilled water, pH is largely irrelevant because there is no alkalinity.

Pardon the intrusion...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Basic rule is if you water is good to drink, it’s good to brew. That being said, I believe if you wish to follow the rabbit down the hole, you can noticeably improve your beers.

There's also an alternative: distilled/RO water with measuring spoons or a small accurate scale. See "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer (link)" or the book Brewing Better Beer.

With distilled/RO water there are no rabbit holes, no "next level" advanced techniques, just a pragmatic approach to water that gets results with the 1st all-grain batch.

 

[Dgallo]

Just a bit of a nitpick but the Source pH is a factor in the mEq contribution of the alkalinity of the source water, of which bicarbonate content is a proxy value. Since the QAlkalinity (mEq) is pH dependent, it’s a factor in the charge balance/equilibrium of the mash and should be considered.

I do agree, however, that if your source happens to be RO/Distilled water, pH is largely irrelevant because there is no alkalinity.

Pardon the intrusion...

Just a bit of a nitpick but the Source pH is a factor in the mEq contribution of the alkalinity of the source water, of which bicarbonate content is a proxy value. Since the QAlkalinity (mEq) is pH dependent, it’s a factor in the charge balance/equilibrium of the mash and should be considered.

I do agree, however, that if your source happens to be RO/Distilled water, pH is largely irrelevant because there is no alkalinity.

Pardon the intrusion...

Absolutely, I probably should have mentioned total alkalinity But the op having limited water chemistry experience I was just trying to simply explain that ph in and of itself will not determine if you will need to make adjustments

 

[Big Monk]

Absolutely, I probably should have mentioned total alkalinity But the op having limited water chemistry experience I was just trying to simply explain that ph in and of itself will not determine if you will need to make adjustments

Right and I agree. To make the collective point explicit here:

The pH value of the source water is not the value you are trying to adjust. While it factors in to the overall mash pH calculation, you should never view the issue as having to take source water pH down to mash pH. In truth, what we are really trying to adjust is the Grist pH (source water, minerals, grain bill) down to the desired target mash pH.

 

[Alex4mula]

There's also an alternative: distilled/RO water with measuring spoons or a small accurate scale. See "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer (link)" or the book Brewing Better Beer.

With distilled/RO water there are no rabbit holes, no "next level" advanced techniques, just a pragmatic approach to water that gets results with the 1st all-grain batch.

This. Get distilled water and spend 3-4hrs understanding BrunWater spreadsheet and buy some cheap salts. My best beers by far came out when I started doing this. Big improvement. The excel file is intimidating at the beginning but then everything makes sense. I used EZWater but BrunWater makes PH a lot more spot on.

 

[VikeMan]

@chrispy321 FYI, @Alex4mula and @BrewnWKopperKat are actually advocating somewhat different things. @BrewnWKopperKat is suggesting using some rules of thumb. @Alex4mula is suggesting using calculations. (I mention it in case the word "This" leads you to believe they are advocating the same thing.)

 

[Alex4mula]

@chrispy321 FYI, @Alex4mula and @BrewnWKopperKat are actually advocating somewhat different things. @BrewnWKopperKat is suggesting using some rules of thumb. @Alex4mula is suggesting using calculations. (I mention it in case the word "This" leads you to believe they are advocating the same thing.)

Maybe. Why you would need a small accurate scale if you don’t know what you are measuring?

 

[VikeMan]

Maybe. Why you would need a small accurate scale if you don’t know what you are measuring?

If you read the primer @BrewnWKopperKat linked to, the method suggested is the antithesis of "spend 3-4hrs understanding BrunWater spreadsheet." AJ's whole point (in the primer) was to not do calculations. It's true AJ doesn't mention scales...I assume @BrewnWKopperKat is suggesting he weigh out the "teaspoons" mentioned in the primer.

 

[Alex4mula]

Well, I still say 3hrs is a small investment for great beer. PO to choose his path. Brew on!

 

[VikeMan]

Well, I still say 3hrs is a small investment for great beer. PO to choose his path. Brew on!

I don't disagree. Personally, I use a pretty danged sophisticated model. I just didn't want the OP to be confused.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

3hrs is a small investment for great beer

Agreed - and three hours of effort is certainly not a "rabbit hole".

@chrispy321 FYI, @Alex4mula and @BrewnWKopperKat are actually advocating somewhat different things. @BrewnWKopperKat is suggesting using some rules of thumb. @Alex4mula is suggesting using calculations. (I mention it in case the word "This" leads you to believe they are advocating the same thing.)

Also, @chrispy321 is working with tap water and we wandered off into a side discussion involving RO/distilled water.

Back in #12, my intent was to "push back" politely against the idea that "water chemistry" is a "rabbit hole". It seems to me that there are three (simpler) parts: initial water quality, mash pH, and flavoring additions (and for those who reuse yeast, minerals for yeast health). So maybe "gopher holes" rather than "rabbit holes"?

 

[Alex4mula]

One year ago water treatments was like a Gods thing to me. It is intimidating. But if you take your time you can make a leap on beer quality just like ferm temp control etc. In other words, I think bad water can definitely degrade to different levels your results. If anyone is serious about brewing better start sooner than later.

 

[Big Monk]

A way I try to breakdown water into constituent parts is in the following order:

1.) Source Water - Ca, Mg, Alkalinity (as CaCO3) and Source pH
2.) Grist
3.) Mineral Additions and Antioxidants
4.) Establish “Target pH”, i.e. “Mash pH”
5a.) Acid Additions (Lactic, Phosphoric, Sauermalz, Sauergut, etc.)
5b.) Base Additions (Baking Soda and Lime)

Technically, 1 and 2 constitute the “Grist pH”, but I always include 3 as well.

The goal of pH prediction differs based on the following:

a.) If “Grist pH” > “Target pH”, add 5a to LOWER pH until they are equal;

b.) If “Grist pH” > “Target pH”, add 5b to RAISE pH until they are equal.

As a general rule of thumb, only a Grist with a high percentage (> 15%) of dark roasted and higher lovibond caramalts will ever fall into Category b.

EDIT: Also, as a general aside because I see newer brewers doing this pretty consistently, NEVER add an acid and a base in the same batch, regardless of what target water profile you are after. It's counterproductive to add acid to lower pH and then add, say, Baking Soda to raise pH. The most common explanation for this when you question people is that they were trying to match the Alkalinity values shown in typical profiles. Don't do this. It's better to disregard the Alkalinity values listed in water profiles and just target the flavor ions.

 

[mygar]

Me being all new to this... at one point will start dealing with my water. Seems pretty important to me as this is the biggest ingredient of your beer! My water is mixed source... and this mix changes depending on availability... so looking at our water analysis, yea don't trust that. For small batch brewing, 5 gal or less, it makes sense to me just to buy spring water at store. If you stick to buying certain brand spring water.. is the chemistry pretty consistent? Figured it would be easier to work with known chemistry than adjusting to ever changing sources. But I have not read anything regarding chemistry yet. Taking one step at a time!

 

[VikeMan]

For small batch brewing, 5 gal or less, it makes sense to me just to buy spring water at store. If you stick to buying certain brand spring water.. is the chemistry pretty consistent?

You might be able to find a spring water that's fairly consistent. But if you're going buy water, I'd recommend buying RO or distilled. Then you'll have a blank slate to work with. If you'e not ready to dive all the way in right away, you could start with the primer in post #12.

 

[mygar]

You might be able to find a spring water that's fairly consistent. But if you're going buy water, I'd recommend buying RO or distilled. Then you'll have a blank slate to work with. If you'e not ready to dive all the way in right away, you could start with the primer in post #12.

Yep will take a look!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

You might be able to find a spring water that's fairly consistent.

Don't assume because spring water is "natural" that it is suitable for your purpose. All the word "spring" tells you is where the water comes from. It implies nothing about water quality or suitability for your use.

Russ

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Don't assume because spring water is "natural" that it is suitable for your purpose. All the word "spring" tells you is where the water comes from. It implies nothing about water quality or suitability for your use.

This is true, but ...

... apparently some spring water suppliers provide sufficient information at their web site. And yes, it's a point in time snapshot.

 

[VikeMan]

Don't assume because spring water is "natural" that it is suitable for your purpose.

I don't assume that, and in fact I didn't recommend spring water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

As an advocate of consistency in brewing, I choose RO water as the best water source for brewing. It eliminates my having to guess at the seasonal alkalinity and pH level changes that occur in other forms of water. After all mastering other aspects of the brewing process like temperature control, yeast propagation, and kegging as an example are no less important when brewing beer.

For some adding a teaspoon full of gypsum to their tap water when brewing a Pale Ale may be as far down the water rabbit hole they ever need to go. For others, it could be just the opposite. They may dedicate a substantial portion of their brewing time researching, developing, and testing out the individual water profiles that will be best suited to a specific style of beer.

 

[NSMikeD]

fwiw, I use the EZ_Water Calculator EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet using the mid points from my water report. Not 100% accurate but better than guessing, IMO. It's very easy to use. I do have RODI water (I have a reef tank and make from 5 to 10 gals a week ) so I can start with a clean slate ( 0 TDS), but I haven't gotten that anal yet ...... yet.

One thing I like is by doing this I can dial in some attributes, like favoring bitterness v maltiness.

I broke down and got a pH meter, calibrated it and used it for the first time yesterday. The pH was spot on. - so that was a bit of gained confidence that I hadn't had until now.

I think if your water report in fairly neutral (not too hard not too soft) you can make good beer and the pH will be fine with most grain bills. If you are seeking to dial in your beer, then water chemistry is another aspect to tweak. Water chemistry also plays a big part of certain beers where water chemistry lies out of the norm, like the very hard water in Guiness.

On a side note, EZ gives me different results than BeerSmith with identical inputs.

 

[Beermeister32]

Suppliers of supermarket jug spring water generally are required to have a water quality report available which states the location of the source water and will have the values you need. This is often available as a pdf online. It is updated once a year, and usually shows +/- possible variations if they exist throughout the year.