nostalgia
Well-Known Member
I have had a similar problem with every digital scale I've ever used. My solution is to tap the platform every time I make an addition. It wakes the scale up to force it to re-read the weight.
-Joe
Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet
- Thread starter Bobby_M
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
-Joe
IMHO, using an accurate measuring teaspoon is probably good enough. A few micrograms give or take will not make or break a batch. It's not that critical based on volume alone.
Uh, I thought that was the purpose of the spreadsheet. Testing water for each batch/style is a non-starter, unless you happen to own a lab
.
martinworswick
Well-Known Member
i use metric and brew in litres and i would like to alter the necessary formulas so i can input litres in boxes d9 and e9, anyone any good with spreadsheets? is this a straightforward alteration?
cheers
martin
cheers
martin
studmonk3y
Well-Known Member
It would be easier to add the conversion yourself in a couple of blank cells. For instance in cell G8 enter the formula "=F8*0.264". Then input your volume in liters in cell F8, and G8 will be the equivalent volume in gallons, which you can then type into D8 or wherever.
+1 to above. Alternatively, you could just remove the conversion factor in cell D32 (D9*3.785). Just remove every instance of 3.785. It looks like that is the only place that converts everything to gallons, as ppm is already metric. I could find no other conversion for E9 as volume is volume.
IMHO, using an accurate measuring teaspoon is probably good enough. A few micrograms give or take will not make or break a batch. It's not that critical based on volume alone.
Uh, I thought that was the purpose of the spreadsheet. Testing water for each batch/style is a non-starter, unless you happen to own a lab
Using an accurate measuring tsp does what for you? You use a chart and you see how much an accurate tsp of each salt should weigh? How do you deal with intervals of that amount? How do you tsp out 2.5g of MgSO4 accurately? Micrograms are 1/1,000,000 of a gram and frankly if you can measure w/in a few millionths of a gram with your magic tsp more power to you. Are we not trying to do something extra special when we fix our water? Go to the 'next level' in brewing? Why bother if your not going to weigh the salts out... Check out one of these scales for under $25 that is accurate to the .01 and don't kid yourself about tsp accuracy. If you want consistency you have to weigh stuff out, you're better than a tsp go the extra mile
http://www.scales-n-tools.com/index.php?main_page=specials&gclid=CPW_w_SbzaACFctx5QodUXwFzw
As for what the spreadsheet is for, it is to help you figure out how much salt you should add. It doesn't take the place of testing your water before or after the addition of salts. If you add the correct amount you should be at the value the spreadsheet predicts. Depending upon how serious you want to get you can purchase some relatively inexpensive tests for at least the crucial part of the water. First get your water AG tested at Wards. Then use these crucial test kits to make sure you water is still where Wards said it was BEFORE you add salts, then add the salts and then make sure you hit your mark. I totally understand that people don't have labs full labs but you can get chloride, sulfate, total alk, total hardness, magnesium, and calcium test kits and easily calculate your RA and your Cl:SO4 ratio. (I'm crazy and I do this) Again, only if you are want to go for extreme consistency in your product. It would matter in some beer styles more than others also, bitters as an example. If I'm going for a 1:10 Cl:SO4 ratio I want to know I've hit it or gotten really close.
kal
Well-Known Member
0.01g scales are cheap. No reason not to have one.
I use this one:
Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15002
Cost: $11.57 shipped
I also purchased this "Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight" see how accurate the scale was:
Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20010
Cost: $1.80 shipped
Total cost to have these shipped to my door: $13.37
Kal
I use this one:
Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15002
Cost: $11.57 shipped
I also purchased this "Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight" see how accurate the scale was:
Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20010
Cost: $1.80 shipped
Total cost to have these shipped to my door: $13.37
Kal
Yep, I just added a conversion factor for each mineral from grams to tsp. in the spreadsheet. I round up/down to the nearest value in grams that keeps me within recommended range.
2.5 g of MgSO4 (my formulation) is .56 tsp. I just add a heaping 1/2 tsp. and call it good.
Micrograms are 1/1,000,000 of a gram and frankly if you can measure w/in a few millionths of a gram with your magic tsp more power to you. Are we not trying to do something extra special when we fix our water? Go to the 'next level' in brewing? Why bother if your not going to weigh the salts out... Check out one of these scales for under $25 that is accurate to the .01 and don't kid yourself about tsp accuracy. If you want consistency you have to weigh stuff out, you're better than a tsp go the extra mile
As for what the spreadsheet is for, it is to help you figure out how much salt you should add. It doesn't take the place of testing your water before or after the addition of salts. If you add the correct amount you should be at the value the spreadsheet predicts. Depending upon how serious you want to get you can purchase some relatively inexpensive tests for at least the crucial part of the water. First get your water AG tested at Wards. Then use these crucial test kits to make sure you water is still where Wards said it was BEFORE you add salts, then add the salts and then make sure you hit your mark. I totally understand that people don't have labs full labs but you can get chloride, sulfate, total alk, total hardness, magnesium, and calcium test kits and easily calculate your RA and your Cl:SO4 ratio. (I'm crazy and I do this) Again, only if you are want to go for extreme consistency in your product. It would matter in some beer styles more than others also, bitters as an example. If I'm going for a 1:10 Cl:SO4 ratio I want to know I've hit it or gotten really close.
I stand corrected, I meant milligrams
If you like to test/treat/test go for it. I don't see the utility. If it works for you and your process then by all means continue. I am buying a scale though, see below.Just ordered. That price is equal to a set of "precision" spoons.
Thanks for the link. I'll weigh the Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight on a laboratory scale to see if it is actually 5g.
Seriously, please let us know how the spoons stack up when you get the scale.
:rockin:
nostalgia
Well-Known Member
I've always been a fan of balances over digital scales. Besides my feeling that they're more accurate, I like the fact that I can set the weight I want and just add stuff until it balances. Or maybe it just takes me back to fond memories of high school chem lab
To that end, I found this little gem on Ebay for $10 shipped. It weighs up to 4 grams with 1/20 gram accuracy. To make it even nicer, this is a new old stock model that was still made in the USA.
In the hopper is 1/4 teaspoon of Kosher salt, which balances at 1.35 grams.
-Joe
To that end, I found this little gem on Ebay for $10 shipped. It weighs up to 4 grams with 1/20 gram accuracy. To make it even nicer, this is a new old stock model that was still made in the USA.
In the hopper is 1/4 teaspoon of Kosher salt, which balances at 1.35 grams.
-Joe
So I use RO water (in the sheet I just put all 0's as everwhere I listen it is compared to Distilled). I came up with this water that I want to use on an Oktoberfest. The beer is 11 SRM and fairly balanced. Im thinking I did ok figuring this out but id welcome advice.
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 6.5
Dilution Rate: 0%
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 3 / 4.588235294
CaSO4: 1 / 1.529411765
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.294117647
MgSO4: 2 / 3.058823529
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 1.529411765
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 114 / 114
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 41 / 31
Cl: 83 / 83
SO4: 83 / 83
CaCO3: 128 / 106
RA (mash only): 40 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.99 (Balanced)
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 6.5
Dilution Rate: 0%
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 3 / 4.588235294
CaSO4: 1 / 1.529411765
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.294117647
MgSO4: 2 / 3.058823529
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 1.529411765
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 114 / 114
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 41 / 31
Cl: 83 / 83
SO4: 83 / 83
CaCO3: 128 / 106
RA (mash only): 40 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.99 (Balanced)
Seriously, please let us know how the spoons stack up when you get the scale.
:rockin:
Man, that scale is coming from Hong Kong! I'll let you know when/if it gets here!
No expert, but looks good for a balanced 11 SRM beer.
Just wondering why you added Na, although 2 grams is not much. And couldn't you achieve your desired RA with one addition of Ca? Either gypsum, CaCl,OR chalk?
this is awesome minus one thing which would make it LEGENDARY!!! is there a way to add a drop down menu with the salt ranges for beer types or am i missing some other beer tool that already tells you that?
OP
OP
Well, it's sort of a function of the beer region but no one can conclusively agree that matching a beer style's original region's profile is even the right way to do it.
wheelerc6
Member
I am going to brew a strong Scottish ale tomorrow and do not have any calcium sulfate or calcium chloride. Calcium Sulfate is gypsum...can I buy the gypsum at HomeDepot?
Is there a form of calcium chloride that I can buy locally....nutrition store, grocery, etc..?
I live in a state where there are no brew stores and I do not want to pay $7 to have this delivered.
Is there a form of calcium chloride that I can buy locally....nutrition store, grocery, etc..?
I live in a state where there are no brew stores and I do not want to pay $7 to have this delivered.
artguy
Well-Known Member
Really helpful thread. Thanks to everyone!
Just to make sure I understand one thing, when you add salts (like gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom) to lower the RA and mash pH, is it safe to assume that the pH will remain in the appropriate range through the sparge (I do a double batch sparge)?
Just to make sure I understand one thing, when you add salts (like gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom) to lower the RA and mash pH, is it safe to assume that the pH will remain in the appropriate range through the sparge (I do a double batch sparge)?
kal
Well-Known Member
Your first batch sparge, no, since you're not adding new water.
Yoru second batch spage, yes, it'll go up slightly but not that much unless your sparge water happens to have a really high pH. Most drinking water's around 7 pH in most cities. Some are bit higher. Some a bit lower. Most are higher than the mash pH you want (5.2) so in the 2nd and follow-on batch sparges you'll find that the pH will be slightly higher.
Not usually an issue for batch spargers. Most don't worry about it. More of an issue for fly (continuous) spargers.
My city's water pH is high (8-9 pH) and I fly sparge so I use a tiny bit of lactic acid to lower the pH of my sparge water down to around 6 just to be safe. (I measure with a pH meter). Combinations of high pH, temperature, time (slow fly sparge), low gravity (under 1.010-1.012) can extract grain husk tannins near the end of fly sparging.
When in doubt taste your wort coming out of your sparge near the end. If the gravity's low and you taste tannins, use water instead to top up the boil kettle. I always taste just out of curiousity too. A good thing to do all the way through the brewing process from crushing grains to kegging/bottling.
Kal
artguy
Well-Known Member
Thanks, kal, very helpful. At about 6.6 my water pH isn't bad, but I've been getting consistent astringency (in my lighter beers especially), so I've been wondering whether the pH was getting a bit too high in the third runnings. Obviously I need to get myself some basic pH strips to check, and I'll also look at maybe adding some acid to the sparge water. I just finally looked up my water profile and the RA is on the high side for paler ales, so I'm wondering whether that may be the cause of my astringency problem. Thanks again.
jimba009
Well-Known Member
Howdy folks, long time no brewing. Looking to get back into it this weekend (thank goodness) and have a quick question. I use a Berkey Black filter for my water and it states that it removes 99.999% of Chlorine, am I in effect needing to add chlorine back in?
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2009
- Messages
- 284
- Reaction score
- 25
You don't want any chlorine in your water.
Yeah, it is a chemistry issue that boils down to the a lousy 'common name' of Chlorine to a very large compound of either Trichloroisocyanuric acid, Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the dichloro version of the same compound. This compound is used by water treatment facilities to kill bad stuff in the water (like fecal streph, etc.) The name Chlorine was first an element on the periodic table before it was taken and used as common name for a common compound. An element means it is at its most basic form (not counting protons, electrons, neutrons, or people from who-ville) Chloride ions are what we want to 'count' in our beer water recipes. Chlorine carries the chemical symbol Cl also by the way. So, when we add salt which is an ionic compound of Sodium (symbol Na) + Chloride (symbol Cl) the water dissociates the compound NaCl into sodium and chloride ions... that is what you 'count' in your water recipe.
Like LiquidGold said, 'you don't want chlorine' but you do want chloride
Filter out the chlorine compound and add back (if necessary) NON-IODIZED salt. You can find it in the spice section typically, be sure you read, you don't want iodine or yellow pruscate(sp?) of soda in it... just Salt, nothing but NaCl ...
Good Luck!
jimba009
Well-Known Member
I really need to send my water to WARD and get a precise measurement of what is coming out of my filter so I know where I am. Da%n hobby, causing me to expand my horizons and such and such...
jimba009
Well-Known Member
just got off the phone with the berkey people... they tell me it does not remove any of our minerals that we so cherish. good to know! still gonna get my water tested...
edit: went to the local K-rogers and it was tough finding salt that did not have some tipe of lube (snicker). found sea-salt from morton's, that was the only one that did not have the yellow stuff or some type of silicone (another snicker). anybody else find this?
thanks for the awesome spreadsheet TH, and freakin sweet videos bobbym, this has cut into homework time A LOT!
edit: went to the local K-rogers and it was tough finding salt that did not have some tipe of lube (snicker). found sea-salt from morton's, that was the only one that did not have the yellow stuff or some type of silicone (another snicker). anybody else find this?
thanks for the awesome spreadsheet TH, and freakin sweet videos bobbym, this has cut into homework time A LOT!
Just posting for the sake of conversation and looking for insight. I read this whole thread and watched the videos and it's all been very educational. When I get home I'll send out for a water test but our city water doesn't taste good but I'll check it out any way.
After consulting Palmer I have decided to do a twenty minute dough in at 104° and then do a sacch rest for sixty minutes at 153°. I am planning to use distilled water unless my water comes back as acceptable. I believe I read I should add any minerals to the sacch infusion is this correct? Now lets assume I have four gallons total in my mash tun and used 2 gallons for dough in and 2 gallons for sacch, (rough estimate because I don't have my actual mash numbers in front of me) do I average out the minerals through four gallons or just add to the two gallon sacch infusion?
I had a hard time trying to answer this myself so I thought I'd ask.
One last question that I couldn't figure out on my own and that is about the boil. According to the spread sheet it says to add X to boil, now is that added to the sparge water or to the wort boil? Thanks for the assistance.
After consulting Palmer I have decided to do a twenty minute dough in at 104° and then do a sacch rest for sixty minutes at 153°. I am planning to use distilled water unless my water comes back as acceptable. I believe I read I should add any minerals to the sacch infusion is this correct? Now lets assume I have four gallons total in my mash tun and used 2 gallons for dough in and 2 gallons for sacch, (rough estimate because I don't have my actual mash numbers in front of me) do I average out the minerals through four gallons or just add to the two gallon sacch infusion?
I had a hard time trying to answer this myself so I thought I'd ask.
One last question that I couldn't figure out on my own and that is about the boil. According to the spread sheet it says to add X to boil, now is that added to the sparge water or to the wort boil? Thanks for the assistance.
Awesome videos, Bobby! I've been wanting to try water adjustments for a while to get the most out of my beers. Luckily the Truckee Meadows Water Authority has an incredibly nice biochemist who sent me all of the necessary information for free! :rockin:
Since this is my first time trying this I want to get it right. Brewing an Irish red next and I want it to be malt-tastic. Should I model the water profile off a UK city (Edinburgh, Yorkshire, Dublin?) or just go for broke and adjust until the spreadsheet gives the "OK" for a malty profile?
Also, do these additions take care of mash pH (i.e keeping it at proper levels) or is it okay/necessary to use 5.2 buffer?
Since this is my first time trying this I want to get it right. Brewing an Irish red next and I want it to be malt-tastic. Should I model the water profile off a UK city (Edinburgh, Yorkshire, Dublin?) or just go for broke and adjust until the spreadsheet gives the "OK" for a malty profile?
Also, do these additions take care of mash pH (i.e keeping it at proper levels) or is it okay/necessary to use 5.2 buffer?
I think?
I just didn't scroll down and read "Notes: Add mash salts directly to the mash. Add sparge salts directly to the boil (not the sparge)."
I just didn't scroll down and read "Notes: Add mash salts directly to the mash. Add sparge salts directly to the boil (not the sparge)."
Alright after a night of reading and working with the calculator I'm confident that I have that figured out. I still can't figure out why additions wouldn't be added to the spage water instead of the boil. Is this because the mash will filter out the salts or change the PH of the mash? The other issue I have is if I have 3 gallons of sparge water and I'm to add the right amount of salts for those three gallons to the boil what if there's further absorption of the sparge through the mash and I don't yield my initial three gallons for the boil. If I'm way off here please feel free to ridicule me
OP
OP
The reason is because salts cannot be added directly to water because the pH is too high to dissolve them. The result is that most of the salts settle to the bottom on your HLT instead of getting into the mash. Once you dough in, the mash goes acid enough to dissolve salts. Same goes for the boil... wort is acidic compared to water.
Once the grain has taken in the liquid it can hold, it won't grab any more. No worries there.
Once the grain has taken in the liquid it can hold, it won't grab any more. No worries there.
Thanks for the reply.
So when adding salt to the water do I do it for the dough in rest, the sacch rest, or both. This is the last thing I am hung up on. Thanks again.
So when adding salt to the water do I do it for the dough in rest, the sacch rest, or both. This is the last thing I am hung up on. Thanks again.
Really?! Do you know of a reference where it shows the solubility of the salts we use vs. pH ? I find it is more temperature related than pH. I've been adding my salts to the mash water which I use about 2.5 gallons. I put the salts in, heat the water to strike temp and stir the whole time and the salts dissolve just fine.
So now you have me wondering, which salt(s) have a hard time with what pH's... Again, just anecdotally table salt (NaCl) dissolves in most people's tap water regardless of their pH, mine is 8.0 straight out of the tap... Epsom salts is another salt we all use at home and I've never heard of dissolving problems, but again, that is in hotter water. Baking soda (NaHCO3) dissolves no problem in any pH. So what is left, Gypsom, Calcium Carbonate, and Chalk. Which of those need a low pH to dissolve?
Before I started using salts my Mash was not hitting the pH targets, I used 5.2 but I think it is worthless as it buffers at 6.0+ ... now using no 5.2 and using the TH spreadsheet and adding the salts to the mash water only, not the sparge water, I'm nailing my pH targets and brewing SRM's of freakin' 5 in water that starts at a pH of 8! So there is no question salts work and are worth doing. I never read that your supposed to add the mash salts to the mash though and have had great luck adding them to the mash water and stirring as it heats up to dissolve the salts...
jimba009
Well-Known Member
Thinkin about performing a multi-rest mash, would I distribute my salts for the mash with my additional infusions?
I think you have something there. (Not to crap on your parade, Bobby_M.)
Salts dissolve best at a pH of 7. A salt, NaCl for instance, will dissolve into the solution by bonding with the OH- and H+ components of H2O.
NaCl + H20 --> (Na+)(OH-) + (H+)(Cl-)
An acidic solution will have a higher [H+]. This will slow the solubility of the salt as there are less available water ions to recombine with the salt ions.
I only remember this stuff because I'm still in school. I'm sure I'll forget it soon enough ^_^
Duffer
Well-Known Member
Can anyone recommend a water profile for a Belgian Wit. Wifee-poo wants an Apricot Wit. Roughly SRM=6 and IBU=18
I just want to mention here that I meant the large question in the nicest, most curious way. Bobby_M is one of the reasons my beers are good. If it weren't for his video's and in conjuction w/TH's spreadsheet I would still be brewin' w/5.2 and crossing my fingers
So the question is more of 'curiosity' and not 'confrontation' just want to note that
:rockin:
Duffer
Well-Known Member
Ok, well.... yeow! Answered my own question. Kinda.
Found a list of Belgian water profiles by Dave Draper. They are ALL OVER THE MAP!
None are in the Pilsner range, but city-dependent, SO4 could be 8ppm and could be 124ppm. Ca could be 8 or 138. Cl- could be 26 or 206!
I think I'll run with the Luik (East Belgium) profile as I can hit all the numbers on top of my home water, the Cl- is way higher than the SO4 (very malty) and I can push the additions around nicely so the RA of the mash is really low (SRM=6ish) and the rest into the boiler!
Ca=98, Mg=14, Na=110, Cl=142, SO4=14 and I can get RA=7
Thanx Bobby!
I just want to mention here that I meant the large question in the nicest, most curious way. Bobby_M is one of the reasons my beers are good. If it weren't for his video's and in conjuction w/TH's spreadsheet I would still be brewin' w/5.2 and crossing my fingers
So the question is more of 'curiosity' and not 'confrontation' just want to note that
:rockin:
Oh jeez, no I wasn't taking sides or egging anybody on
I just felt you had a good point, Netflyer. My parade crapping comment was just me being silly. I, too, owe the quality of my beers in part to Bobby_M and the other talented brewers on HBT.
Settled, we both give the 'We're not worthy' salute to Bobby_m but still curious about the solubilities of the salts we work with vs. pH
OP
OP
No disclaimers necessary as I've fallen into the trap of regurgitating crap that I've probably heard or read somewhere else, maybe, from someone. I think it might have been Kai Troester.
Yup, and it was specific to Chalk.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ed_chalk#About_chalk_and_the_carbonate_system
Carry on.
Yup, and it was specific to Chalk.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ed_chalk#About_chalk_and_the_carbonate_system
Carry on.
Now that I've got some experience brewing using this, I have a question. My beers have all been hoppy IPAs and Pale Ales so the Chrloride to Sulfate ratio has been bitter or very bitter. Is there a guide to figure where a given beer would fit in the given parameters? BU/GU ratio? I've got a Cream of Three Crops to brew up and was wondering where that would fit.
TIA
TIA
OP
OP
I never go too far into the malty side. In fact, I've been using a 1:1 ratio if it's a malty beer style.
Similar threads
- Article
