Waste not want not

[YSpanopoulos]

OK so we made a batch of lovely elderflower 'champagne', a lightly sparkling low alcohol summertime beverage using this recipe. Basically its made similarly to elderflower wine, but bottled and chilled before allowing it to ferment.
Anyway, upon enjoying a bottle or two we realized it was upsetting our stomach... on further investigation we realized that the water we used wasn't clean tap water so was probably contaminated.
It breaks our heart to pour the whole batch of elderflower down the drain (though it would break our stomach more to drink it!), so we were wondering is there a way we can 'convert' it to elderflower wine. Apparently the higher alcohol level of wine would kill off any nasties in the beverage.
Other than that, does anyone have any ideas on salvaging or using the batch other than as drain cleaner?
Thanks in advance!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you have a hydrometer? It's a basic tool for monitoring fermentation progress and is used to calculate alcohol level.

1 pound of honey per gallon ferments to about 5% ABV.
1.5 pounds of sugar per gallon ferments to about 9% ABV.

These alcohol levels are plenty high enough to inhibit the relevant pathogenic bacteria. I'm not sure why it's "upsetting your stomach", but I suspect it's probably not from microbes.
Alcohol has been used to sanitize drinking water for millennia -- it kills pathogenic bacteria and parasites.

It might be the actual flowers making you sick.

The seeds, stems, leaves and roots of the Black Elder are all poisonous to humans. They contain a cyanide-inducing glycoside. Eating a sufficient quantity of these cyanide-inducing glycosides can cause a toxic buildup of cyanide in the body and make you quite ill. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and even coma.

Welcome to HBT!
P.S. You might want to make a more relevant thread title next time! "Elderflower wine making me sick". Otherwise people that can help might miss it.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Might be live yeast still in the drink. If you become "regular" after drinking that concotion, you can almost guarantee that is what has happened.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, probably not the toxic elderflowers. Must be "live yeast".

 

[DoctorCAD]

Yeah, probably not the toxic elderflowers. Must be "live yeast".

Yeast is a probiotic.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeast is a probiotic.

1. "Live yeast" does not make people sick when consumed in quantities found in wine or beer. People all over the world consume beer and wine from all over the world without getting sick.
2. "Probiotics" cause health benefits, not illness. Although, perhaps the OP could better describe the problem so we can better determine what's going on in this case.
3. The only species of yeast known to be "probiotic" is S. boulardii, which generally isn't what ferments a wine.
4. Certain bacteria are probiotic, and can survive in wine, but again, none will make you acutely ill after drinking the wine.
5. There's an obvious toxin in this wine which explains the illness in this case. Occam's Razor.

Cheers

 

[DIYer]

on further investigation we realized that the water we used wasn't clean tap water so was probably contaminated.

Can you elaborate on this? Contaminated how? With what?

 

[Seamonkey84]

Poisonous ingredients plus non-potable water?! Dump this batch and call it a learning experience. There are numerous “edible” plants and fruits out there that have parts that are toxic. Same reason your not suppose to eat peach pits and apple seeds. Then there are mushrooms that are edible, but can’t be consumed with alcohol or it’ll creat a toxic interaction in your body.

 

[YSpanopoulos]

Wow thanks for all those replies!!

Well... the day after consuming the first bottle of elderflower we both had diarrhea like symptoms. Didnt make any connection to the elderflower champagne.
This time within hours after drinking it I had a temporary bout of severe diarrhea. My wife was OK until the next morning, when she felt nausea but no other issues.

 

[bracconiere]

Alcohol has been used to sanitize drinking water for millennia -- it kills pathogenic bacteria and parasites.

i thought it was the boiling?

 

[RPh_Guy]

i thought it was the boiling?

Plenty of methods have been used.

 

[bracconiere]

Plenty of methods have been used.

BEER! It's safer than water! (or in this case elderflowers?) lol

 

[NGD]

Do you have a hydrometer? It's a basic tool for monitoring fermentation progress and is used to calculate alcohol level.

1 pound of honey per gallon ferments to about 5% ABV.
1.5 pounds of sugar per gallon ferments to about 9% ABV.

These alcohol levels are plenty high enough to inhibit the relevant pathogenic bacteria. I'm not sure why it's "upsetting your stomach", but I suspect it's probably not from microbes.
Alcohol has been used to sanitize drinking water for millennia -- it kills pathogenic bacteria and parasites.

It might be the actual flowers making you sick.

The seeds, stems, leaves and roots of the Black Elder are all poisonous to humans. They contain a cyanide-inducing glycoside. Eating a sufficient quantity of these cyanide-inducing glycosides can cause a toxic buildup of cyanide in the body and make you quite ill. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and even coma.

Welcome to HBT!
P.S. You might want to make a more relevant thread title next time! "Elderflower wine making me sick". Otherwise people that can help might miss it.

I agree its likely something to do with the processing of the elderflower, however without knowing his water source it would be difficult to rule it out.

If you just googled “is elderberry poisonous” you would bring up the snippet you quoted. You neglected to include the rest. I’ve read nothing in regards to the flower itself being an issue https://normsfarms.com/blogs/growing-and-harvesting-elderberry/are-elderberry-bushes-poisonous

The seeds, stems, leaves and roots of the Black Elder are all poisonous to humans. They contain a cyanide-inducing glycoside. Eating a sufficient quantity of these cyanide-inducing glycosides can cause a toxic buildup of cyanide in the body and make you quite ill. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and even coma. Most people recover quickly, although hospitalization may be required. The fruit of the elderberry is a tiny berry, about 1/8 to ¼ inch in diameter, and about 50% of the berry is seed. Cooking the berries destroys the glycosides present in the seeds, making the berries with their seeds safe to eat.

@YSpanopoulos how did you process the elderberries? What is your water contaminated with that would bring you to that conclusion?

 

[Seamonkey84]

The flowers are edible, but if your not careful in removing all the stems there can be some issues. Have to make sure to use just the blossoms and berries.

 

[bernardsmith]

Apologies - removed post because of font issues.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not sure what is going on ..

 

[bernardsmith]

Third attempt:
Sorry, Guys, but I think we are all clutching at straws. We really have no idea whether the water is tainted: if it is then YSpanopoulos should be able to find someone to grow the microbes in a petri dish; or whether he picked the wrong variety of elderflowers – in which case a local botanist should be able to tell him. Or perhaps he and his wife both ate a tainted meal the previous day , in which case others who may have eaten the same dishes may also be suffering from the same symptoms without having tasted his syrup. Two events happening one after the other (I drank some syrup; I felt ill) does not necessarily indicate that the second event was CAUSED by the first. But hey! I am only a social scientist and we look at at a great many events which are correlated, not causally related . The question is then what exactly is the problem for which we are all trying to identify a solution?

 

[YSpanopoulos]

Lots of good information and discussion here... thanks.
The water (we later realized) came from a water tank, not a mains (drinking) water tap. That is what lead us to presume it was the water causing the upset stomach.
We made a batch of elderflower some weeks before using different water with no problem.
The elderflower was used, not the berries, following the above posted recipe

 

[RPh_Guy]

I’ve read nothing in regards to the flower itself being an issue

This article compares the levels of toxins in flowers from trees in two different locations. Toxins are present in both.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jsfa.8085

Also, as mentioned, not completely removing ALL of the flower stems increases the level of toxin.

Why is the poisonous plant causing illness such a hard sell?

We made a batch of elderflower some weeks before using different water with no problem.

From the same plant? Did you completely remove all the stems?

The water (we later realized) came from a water tank

Is there possible fecal contamination of the water?
The huge majority of diarrhea-causing (pathogenic) bacteria (and viruses and parasites) are transmitted via fecal-oral route. The notable exception being Vibrio.
However as I suggested earlier, alcohol generally kills these organisms, so this is much less likely to be causing your issue in my opinion. Admittedly we don't know the alcohol level without you having taking gravity readings.

 

[Beer Nuts]

Then there are mushrooms that are edible, but can’t be consumed with alcohol or it’ll creat a toxic interaction in your body.

Which ones?

 

[Seamonkey84]

Inky cap mushrooms
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprinopsis_atramentaria