Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[applescrap]

Question.... To understand this correctly, I'm still fairly new to brewing

I ferment at lager at 70-72 degrees for 3 weeks

I bottle, can i let bottles get to 75-76 degrees?

after 3 weeks in bottle do i stick in the fridge?


Also has anyone warm fermented a Festbier?

Good questions. 3 weeks ferment, sure or 10 days, longer is perceived as better and likely is. As far as storage, idk, experiment. Put some in fridge, some at room temp and see which you like best. I think it was chris white on a podcast say he puts his lagers in the fridge and doesnt touch them till he can see through them. Probably good practice warm ferment or not.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks for the offer (Googles - finds Brewtek descrptions at http://micrap.selfip.com:81/BrewtekYeastinfo.htm)

Unfortunately the lager bit of the project has had to go on hold for a bit for reasons outside our control, hopefully we'll be able to come back to it, so no need to send anything just yet. But it's not that difficult - there's some instructions kicking around somewhere (think it's a sticky on the yeast board?) on how to send yeast dried onto sterile blotting paper.

 

[cmac62]

Question.... To understand this correctly, I'm still fairly new to brewing

I ferment at lager at 70-72 degrees for 3 weeks

I bottle, can i let bottles get to 75-76 degrees?

after 3 weeks in bottle do i stick in the fridge?


Also has anyone warm fermented a Festbier?

The fridge is the lagering. It will eventually clear warm to, but will clear way faster cold.

 

[Miraculix]

I have good news!

I just test tasted a sample of my raw lager that was, by accident (heatwave) fermented at above 30C (86 F) for the first 3 to 4 days.

The yeast is Mangrove jack california Lager.

After hearing about horrible results with 3470 under the same circumstances, I was a bit worried, so I used the chance to take a sample when I threw in the dry hops today and what shall I say..... TASTED AWESOME!!!!

Well, but to be 100% honest, it did not taste completely like a lager but like an American ale strain. A very very clean, slightly fruity (in a good way) ale strain. It reminded me STRONGLY of bry 97 - west coast ale from Lallemand, in a subdued version regarding ale esthers.

So long storry short, Mangrove Jack California lager can be used at any freaking temperature.

How awesome is that?

PS: Pitched the yeast 8 days ago, so there might be some further cleaning done by the yeast, so the flavour might be even a bit less fruity in a few weeks time.

 

[iahebert]

Question.... To understand this correctly, I'm still fairly new to brewing

I ferment at lager at 70-72 degrees for 3 weeks

I bottle, can i let bottles get to 75-76 degrees?

after 3 weeks in bottle do i stick in the fridge?

What I did for mine, which is still bottle conditioning, is ferment at 66 for 5 days, raise up to 70 for 2, then cold crash at 34 for 10 or 15 days. Bottle like usual, then keep at 70 (i think 75 is ok here) for 3 weeks. Move to the fridge, get nice and cold, and enjoy as you see fit.

One other bit I did was chilled my wort to around 58 prior to pitching my 34/70 and let it happily free-rise to fermenting temp.

It's been in the bottles 12 days, but the early bottles I've cracked open were crisp and clean.

I'm looking for Festbier recipes too, but haven't found what i'm looking for yet. This thread has a lot of good info in it though.

 

[brewbama]

I’ve not read thru the entire thread but wondered if anyone has entered a warm fermented larger into a competition. If so, what was the outcome and judge’s feedback.

 

[seatazzz]

I’ve not read thru the entire thread but wondered if anyone has entered a warm fermented larger into a competition. If so, what was the outcome and judge’s feedback.

I'm about to this weekend. Holding on to the last 3/4 gallon to make sure I have enough to bottle. Was fermented at 64-66 for 2 weeks, crashed, then kegged. Tapped after force carbed. First few pints had a weird quinine-y bitterness but it faded fast, end result is a nice crisp flavorful beer. Won't get scores until the 31st, will definitely post here.

 

[applescrap]

I’ve not read thru the entire thread but wondered if anyone has entered a warm fermented larger into a competition. If so, what was the outcome and judge’s feedback.

Marshall did. And he passed to the second round at nhbc iirc. Others have too, i think.

 

[Bilsch]

Do you think any of the big guys, say in Milwaukee, do warmer fermented lagers?

 

[catdaddy66]

Another steam beer attempt! This will be an American version similar to a California common but will use a bit different grain bill (.5# more C60, .5# less Munich) and a different hop variety (Aurora). I will be using San Francisco lager yeast wlp810. Have every reason to be optimistic for this batch.

The grains are ground and a fermenter is empty...

 

[seatazzz]

Warm fermented lager #5 is in the mash tun right now. Going weird with this one in terms of hops, going to bitter & flavor with Crystal since I have them. Also using fresh 34/70 (2 packets) because I'm not sure I trust the harvested S-23 I've got. We'll see what we get. 10lbs two row, 4lbs pilsner, standard mash at 154-156. Will be fermented at 62 for a week and a bit then tested, if it's good by then will crash and package. Trying to see how fast I can get this grain to glass with decent results this time. Completely out of something light and easy drinking in the pipeline right now so need to get this on tap asap.

 

[Miraculix]

Warm fermented lager #5 is in the mash tun right now. Going weird with this one in terms of hops, going to bitter & flavor with Crystal since I have them. Also using fresh 34/70 (2 packets) because I'm not sure I trust the harvested S-23 I've got. We'll see what we get. 10lbs two row, 4lbs pilsner, standard mash at 154-156. Will be fermented at 62 for a week and a bit then tested, if it's good by then will crash and package. Trying to see how fast I can get this grain to glass with decent results this time. Completely out of something light and easy drinking in the pipeline right now so need to get this on tap asap.

Had the same issues once I used 3470, and I got it bottled way too early. It stays in suspension a looong time, so a cold crash or waiting game is necessary with this one if you are not into deep layers of sediments in the bottle/keg. It is also good to leave it on the yeast for cleaning up, it really needs it sometimes.

If you want quick results, I would advice you to give Mangrove jacks California lager a try in the future. No matter what, this yeast is the best warm lager yeast. Clean, flocks better than all other lager yeasts I tried and it even works at 86f+ ( 30c+) (I tried it). It also does not throw off anything that would need to be cleaned up afterwards... just the best imo.

 

[Manufacturedevolution]

My amber ale uses crystal hops exclusively. I don't see anything weird with that. I think they'd do great in place of "noble" hops.

 

[brewbama]

I'm about to this weekend. Holding on to the last 3/4 gallon to make sure I have enough to bottle. Was fermented at 64-66 for 2 weeks, crashed, then kegged. Tapped after force carbed. First few pints had a weird quinine-y bitterness but it faded fast, end result is a nice crisp flavorful beer. Won't get scores until the 31st, will definitely post here.

That is awesome

Marshall did. And he passed to the second round at nhbc iirc. Others have too, i think.

That is awesome -er.

 

[brewbama]

Had the same issues once I used 3470, and I got it bottled way too early. It stays in suspension a looong time, so a cold crash or waiting game is necessary with this one if you are not into deep layers of sediments in the bottle/keg. It is also good to leave it on the yeast for cleaning up, it really needs it sometimes.

If you want quick results, I would advice you to give Mangrove jacks California lager a try in the future. No matter what, this yeast is the best warm lager yeast. Clean, flocks better than all other lager yeasts I tried and it even works at 86f+ ( 30c+) (I tried it). It also does not throw off anything that would need to be cleaned up afterwards... just the best imo.

I’ve also used MJ Cali Common yeast though not that high. I remember a very clean beer with it.

 

[seatazzz]

None of the LHBS near me carry the MJ yeast, would have to order it. I am intrigued, however. I'll give 34/70 a try with this one, for the next one will see if I can find some MJ yeast. This is a beer that I need to keep in the pipeline, all but one iteration of it have been terrific. Thanks for the input guys! We are a great thread here.

 

[seatazzz]

Had the same issues once I used 3470, and I got it bottled way too early. It stays in suspension a looong time, so a cold crash or waiting game is necessary with this one if you are not into deep layers of sediments in the bottle/keg. It is also good to leave it on the yeast for cleaning up, it really needs it sometimes.

If you want quick results, I would advice you to give Mangrove jacks California lager a try in the future. No matter what, this yeast is the best warm lager yeast. Clean, flocks better than all other lager yeasts I tried and it even works at 86f+ ( 30c+) (I tried it). It also does not throw off anything that would need to be cleaned up afterwards... just the best imo.

The very first one I did with 34/70 had diacetyl, LOTS of it. I didn't have my fermentation fridge when I brewed it (used a swamp cooler) so I'm hoping this one won't have that issue. Letting the keg sit at room temp for 5 days solved the diacetyl problem, but I want to avoid that issue altogether with this one. We'll see what happens. It's already down to 68 from 75 at pitching time an hour ago so I have high hopes for it. Definitely going to do some shopping for MJ yeast before next brew.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

None of the LHBS near me carry the MJ yeast, would have to order it. I am intrigued, however. I'll give 34/70 a try with this one

Note that people seem to prefer WLP800 to 34/70 as a better floccer - and I'd imagine there's nothing particularly special about the MJ Californian, most of the yeast companies seem to do some kind of Californian-style yeast, it would be good to hear how people get on with other makes.

Meanwhile I'm feeling frustrated - the UK's heatwave seems to have ended just as I've got all the bits together for my kveik bog myrtle beer. Damn these steady temperatures in the 66-68F range!

 

[applescrap]

Yep, my pilsner from before that i am still drinking has not totally flocced yet. Its been sitting undisturbed in keg for a long time now. I will try the mj next too!

 

[Miraculix]

Note that people seem to prefer WLP800 to 34/70 as a better floccer - and I'd imagine there's nothing particularly special about the MJ Californian, most of the yeast companies seem to do some kind of Californian-style yeast, it would be good to hear how people get on with other makes.

Meanwhile I'm feeling frustrated - the UK's heatwave seems to have ended just as I've got all the bits together for my kveik bog myrtle beer. Damn these steady temperatures in the 66-68F range!

Hahahha tell me about it, I was also all set up for a Kveik and a saison. Bog Myrtle Kveik is an interesting idea!

I think I will now just finally do what I intended to do looong time ago, getting rid of all the dry yeast in my fridge and all the hops I got by just brewing with what I got on hand till I ran out of either malt, hops, or yeast.

I think next might be a belgian red (does this actually exist?) with crossmyloof belgian yeast (have to get rid of the crystal.....).

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Well couldn't stay away for long, brewed another one this weekend,
3 gal
1.050 og
2 lb 2-row
2lb 6-row
1lb of flaked corn
1lb of flaked rice
.25 oz willamette fwh
.25 oz willamette @15min
2 pinches of irish moss @15 min

pitched 3 packets of WLP840(forgot to make a starter)
aerated for 60sec of pure oxygen
pitched at 50°f

think ill just let this free rise up into the mid 60s for couple days then let it get up into the 70s for a week, then try and "chill" it for two-three weeks. FIN with gelatin keg and drink after week or two.

 

[John Kimble]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

 

[Miraculix]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

The most forgiving lager yeast ist mangrove jack California lager. You basically throw it in, let it ride till it is done, then you bottle with the amount of priming sugar you prefer (the more sugar, the more fizz, I usually use 4 grams per 0.5l, one sugar cube, how convenient!) And let the capped bottles stand at room temperature. After two weeks time, the beer should be fully carbonated and good to drink (doesn't hurt if you have to check a bottle already after one week in the bottle ).


By "let it ride till it is done" I meant till fermentation has finished. You can take hydrometer readings and when gravity readings stay stable, it is done. You can let it sit longer if you want the yeast to fall out of suspension or if you want it to clean up unwanted fermentation byproducts. With this yeast and a starting gravity of about 1.05, you can safely assume that fermentation has finished after 12 days. .... Usually it is actually done after a few days. But taking into account the aforementioned, I wouldn't bottle prior to ten days in the fermenter.

Edit: if you order mangrove jack yeast, than buy yourself a pack of "new world strong ale" yeast as well from this company. It is a clean ale yeast that also works at your temperature range and it would be fun to do your lager recipe again, but this time with this ale yeast instead to compare.

What you will recognize is that the taste differs a bit and that this ale yeast will drop clear way faster.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.

You need to get a posting to Alaska for the sake of your yeast! >=75F without temperature control would traditionally be regarded as tough for any kind of brewing bar saisons, never mind trying to brew lager. So be prepared for them to be not as clean as you might hope, but hopefully the tips in this thread can help you exceed those expectations.

Although the Mangrove Jack M54 has attracted the most excitement in this thread, I suspect any Californian lager yeast will do - most of the yeast companies do one. At this time of year dry yeast will probably be a better bet from a shipping point of view, if you can't get liquid yeast from a local shop.

But really you're an ideal customer for Norwegian yeast, which have crazy temperature tolerance. I'd love to see someone doing a warm lager with Hothead (aka Stranda) from Omega, which is meant to be the cleanest of the Norwegian kveiks; or give Hornindal (Omega and others) for fruity NEIPA-ish beers. Voss (Omega, Yeast Bay etc) is somewhere in between.

 

[z-bob]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

I have used T-58 yeast at an ambient temperature of about 80° and the beer was good. I pitched the yeast at about 70 degrees and just let it do it's thing in my hot unairconditioned kitchen in the summer. I have no idea how hot it got at peak activity. It was a wheat beer (49% 2-row, 49% wheat malt, 2% melanoidin malt, Saaz hops) It certainly wasn't a lager, but it was nice; no off flavors. As an added bonus, T-58 is pretty cheap.

K1V-1116 wine yeast is another possibility. I fermented a beer with it last spring, and it took forever because the temp was really too cool, but the beer turned out really nice. I want to try it again and ferment in the 70's and see what happens. (that yeast is cheap too. I'm starting to see a pattern...)

With one of the Norwegian yeasts, you should be able to do really clean crisp ales at 90+ degrees, and they will be ready to bottle in about a week. You can even pitch them at 90° if you're having trouble chilling the wort much below that.

 

[John Kimble]

I really appreciate all the advice. I am going to start with a Norwegian strain based on your recommendations. I am going to try and get a Brewjacket solid state cooler to regulate the best I can, but I will report my findings once I get my setup all purchased and start the first batch.
I am likely going to use a Spikes Conical as my fermenting container, so I may also try to let ambient pressure build up to 15psi to do a partial pressurized ferment to account for the increased temp. I have been reading a lot of literature suggesting that increased pressure at at higher temp prevents off flavors and increases clarity by reducing the ester and fusel production. Am I off on this?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you're using a kveik then just keep it simple - don't bother with the Brewjacket, don't complicate it with pressure. They don't have any of that gear in a Norwegian farmhouse!

 

[Mer-man]

If you're using a kveik then just keep it simple - don't bother with the Brewjacket, don't complicate it with pressure. They don't have any of that gear in a Norwegian farmhouse!

Nope, just sheep and cabbage

 

[John Kimble]

Got it. Will brew it pure! Do you know if the Hothead Omega or any of the other similar strands have issues with being harvested and used again?

 

[Beer666]

Hat off to you again applescrap i am now completely hooked on this method. Kegged a Black lager last week. My fifth go with MJ54. Brewed 29 days ago, crystal clear and perfectly drinkable. Whats great about this yeast as it says on the pack "extended lagering not necessary". The only other cali lager yeast i have tried was crossmyloof (only once) and that was not as tasty and did not clear anywhere near as fast.
I will be trying the MJ bohemian and Bavarian at warm temps soon after i do a cold run to see if there is any difference.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Got it. Will brew it pure! Do you know if the Hothead Omega or any of the other similar strands have issues with being harvested and used again?

Well the original kveiks were preserved dried on bits of wood, they're pretty tough beasts. So the commercial versions should be fine (with the caveat that they may have been purified of some vital bacterium etc that helped them survive harvesting, unlikely though).

I'd aim for the hoppier pilsner end of the lager spectrum - can't guarantee that a kveik at 90F will be quite as clean as an authentic German helles, but from what I've read, you should make something that's better than most US commercial lagers for knocking back with the boys in that >75F heat.

Maybe using proper lager yeast with a cooling system will be the only way to get something that satisfies your tastebuds, but I'm all for taking the cheap and low-tech route if possible!

 

[davidabcd]

I'm about to this weekend. Holding on to the last 3/4 gallon to make sure I have enough to bottle. Was fermented at 64-66 for 2 weeks, crashed, then kegged. Tapped after force carbed. First few pints had a weird quinine-y bitterness but it faded fast, end result is a nice crisp flavorful beer. Won't get scores until the 31st, will definitely post here.

OFF TOPIC ALERT: When I read this, I wondered, "How does he know what quinine tasted like? Had malaria?" I found that it is commonly used. Learn something every day.

 

[seatazzz]

OFF TOPIC ALERT: When I read this, I wondered, "How does She know what quinine tasted like? Had malaria?" I found that it is commonly used. Learn something every day.

Quinine is also what makes tonic water, well, tonic water. Also FTFY.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks beer666. I am going to have to try the mj yeast. The 3470 isnt flocking. John 75 is no problema. A good read is the brulosophy exbmt on fermentation temperature. There are a bunch of them, but this one he did 82 and i think 58. Yes, in this one tasters did discern a difference but iirc correctly they also preferred the warm ferment. The brewer, brulosopher, was blown away with how close they were.

 

[seatazzz]

Looks like #5 might be done in ten days like I was hoping. Did a D-rest at 72 for 3 days, gravity is stuck at 1.018. No diacetyl however. Crystal hops (and that's all I used) gave it a very gentle bittering bite and very nice floral/slightly fruity aroma and flavor. Just turned down the controller to get it started down the cold crashing path.

If I remember correctly, the second one I did on harvested 34/70 flocced out much better than the first one. I used two packets for this one, still not enough cells apparently. Not going to the LHBS until next week, will give my guy a call this week to see if he can order me some MJ. This IS an ongoing experiment, but one where the results get drunk no matter what!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The only other cali lager yeast i have tried was crossmyloof (only once) and that was not as tasty and did not clear anywhere near as fast.
I will be trying the MJ bohemian and Bavarian at warm temps soon after i do a cold run to see if there is any difference.

Interesting, as most of the CML strains seem to be the same as Mangrove Jacks. Was there any big change in process that might have affected the rate at which it dropped?

Assume that none of the MJ strains are original, so it's a question of what they've repacked. I'd guess the Bavarian is almost certainly 34/70?

 

[Upthewazzu]

Where is everyone getting MJ54 online?

 

[SanPancho]

Few nitpicks-

Lets hold off on anointing Cali common as the “best” yeast here- tastes are subjective for all us us- but i gotta say that **** is gross. There is a reason why only the tourist bars sell Anchor in SF.

And regarding the A/B test marshall did, the tasters picked the warm beer, but most said no difference. Although eventually as they aged a bit he said the cold one got better and the warm seemed less so. Granted that was fermented in the 80s, which might have been too high. Maybe 70 is a more realistic upper limit.

And the 3470 wont floc complaint is not universal by any means. Gotta make sure yeast is happy and healthy, and keep enough calcium in the mix. I dont even bother fining, although that’s obviously another route.

And on sort of related note, white labs has a high pressure yeast. Fermients warm, but need to keep under pressure so you gotta ferment in a keg.

 

[InspectorJon]

I was looking on the Mangrove Jack website and they say:

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."

Has anyone had trouble repitching this yeast? It is difficult to find at the LHBS and I'd rather not pay shipping. I found one pack with a good date. I will brew a 1.75 gallon California Common batch with it and then want to use that yeast to pitch a 3 gallon batch of Doppelbock. Anyone have experience reusing this yeast?

 

[ba-brewer]

I was looking on the Mangrove Jack website and they say:

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."

Has anyone had trouble repitching this yeast? It is difficult to find at the LHBS and I'd rather not pay shipping. I found one pack with a good date. I will brew a 1.75 gallon California Common batch with it and then want to use that yeast to pitch a 3 gallon batch of Doppelbock. Anyone have experience reusing this yeast?

Seems like marketing propaganda to sell more yeast.

I have seen people say the peachy flavor from US-05 is a first pitch thing. I have never used the mangrove jack yeasts but most other dry yeast I have tried work better on repitches then the first pitch. Maybe they are just saying the yeast will not perform completely the same as the first pitch.