Victory and special b in IPA?

[gruveb]

I'm new and humbly asking for feedback on a potential experiment.

11# Maris Otter
1# special b
1/2# victory
1/2# aromatic

1.5 oz Amarillo at 85
1 oz cascade at 45
2 oz cascade at 15
1.5 oz Amarillo at flame out

Wlp007 yeast

Oaked

Beer smith says it'll be about 52 IBU's and an srm of about 20. But...will it be super malty with special b and victory?

 

[tennesseean_87]

What's your OG supposed ot be? It will be really malty with that special B. I'm not familiar with victory, and 52 IBUs aren't very many to balance. I like and IPA around that bitterness that's really light and dry.

That looks kinda like an arrogant bastard without as much bitterness.

 

[hillhousesawdustco]

Normally I'd say DO IT, but that is seriously a lot of dark crystal malt and you already have a fairly malty base from using MO instead of regular ole 2row. Beersmith has Special B at 180srm described as "Extreme caramel aroma and flavored malt. Used in dark Belgian Abbey and Trappist ales. Unique flavor and aroma." Between that and the aromatic and victory, yeah this is going to be a much more malty than the average IPA I would think, and at least as dark as 20srm, which is pretty darned dark for an IPA if color matters to you. I would cut the Special B way back, maybe a quarter pound- but hey it is YOUR experiment so do watcha want.

What exactly are you going for?

Also, 85 minute addition seems totally random is that just to get your IBUs just where you want them?

 

[kingwood-kid]

I made an IPA with a lb of Victory and 9oz Special B, and it was great, so the idea can certainly work. What you have looks more like a barleywine than an IPA, which is fine, just different. If that's what you want, then mash low and brew away. If you want an IPA, then I would drop the Aromatic, cut the Special B roughly in half and add a lot more hops everywhere you can think to put them. Of course, there's no requirement that your beer fit into a specific category.

 

[daksin]

Seems like an English Oaked Arrogant Bastard. I actually think this will be pretty tasty, but I would use EITHER the victory OR the aromatic, and not both.

 

[corkpuller]

I made an IPA with a lb of Victory and 9oz Special B, and it was great, so the idea can certainly work. What you have looks more like a barleywine than an IPA, which is fine, just different. If that's what you want, then mash low and brew away. If you want an IPA, then I would drop the Aromatic, cut the Special B roughly in half and add a lot more hops everywhere you can think to put them. Of course, there's no requirement that your beer fit into a specific category.

Great recommendations. I'd do this!

 

[bobbrews]

To answer the title question, a big resounding NO. Only use it if it's something like 2 oz. for a color adjustment and minimal flavor contributions.

For caramel toasty sweetness, rely on 2-5% regular C10/20/40... or honey malt / golden naked oats.

The opening recipe, with only 6 oz. hops, will yield a very cloying malt sweetness and not enough dryness, or depth for an American IPA, which is supposed to focus on the hops.

If your goal is a sweeter, oaky English APA with minimal focus on American hops, then let us know.

 

[J343MY]

YES! you can definitely do it, but a pound of special b might be a little too much. I made sort of a brown ipa with 1 lb of C120, and 0.5 lbs special b, and it was amazing. If you want something a bit closer to an IPA I would drop aromatic and try something like this.

12 lbs Marris otter
0.5 lb special B
0.5 lb Victory

 

[bobbrews]

That's almost exactly the same as his opening grist and still way too malty/sweet for an American IPA.

 

[Yooper]

That's almost exactly the same as his opening grist and still way too malty/sweet for an American IPA.

Yes, maybe for your standards it would be. But if someone likes it, then it's not up to us to say that it's too sweet for their IPA.

 

[bobbrews]

Yooper, I've seen you say on multiple occasions, that even as little as .75 crystal malt was too much in a 5 gallon batch of American IPA. I'm not sure why you have such a change of heart here. Anyway, we have always provided advice based on our personal opinions and experience... yourself included. The truth is, we're talking a full pound (or more) of Special B + Victory now... wayyyy richer, nuttier, and sweeter than average. And not something typical in a standard American IPA.

 

[J343MY]

Yooper, I've seen you say on multiple occasions, that even as little as .75 crystal malt was too much in a 5 gallon batch of American IPA. I'm not sure why you have such a change of heart here. Anyway, we have always provided advice based on our personal opinions and experience... yourself included. The truth is, we're talking a full pound (or more) of Special B + Victory now... wayyyy richer, nuttier, and sweeter than average. And not something typical in a standard American IPA.

I think quite often you cross the line between giving advice, and telling people what they should be doing.

 

[bobbrews]

I think quite often you cross the line between giving advice, and telling people what they should be doing.

Well, okay. I've never seen you post here, or even heard of you before. But thank you for providing your insight on how I should behave rather than providing constructive advice for the OP. Encouragement without constructive criticism means nothing.

 

[J343MY]

Well, okay. I've never seen you post here, or even heard of you before. But thank you for providing your insight on how I should behave rather than providing constructive advice for the OP. Encouragement without constructive criticism means nothing.

I did give my advice earlier in the thread actually.

 

[bobbrews]

I did give my advice earlier in the thread actually.

Again, it was just basic encouragement and not very constructive. It's kind of like saying, "Good Dog." If I were the OP, I'd rather not have someone like you comment, when my goal was to better my recipe and my processes. You're not going to get better that way.

 

[J343MY]

Again, it was just basic encouragement and not very constructive. It's kind of like saying, "Good Dog." If I were the OP, I'd rather not have someone like you comment, when my goal was to better my recipe and my processes. You're not going to get better that way.

Isn't homebrewing about learning, and finding out how to make the kind of beers you want to drink? Maybe he would have brewed the beer he originally proposed and loved it. Maybe he would have thought he used way too much special b. Worst case scenario he would have 5 gals of beer he didn't enjoy.

We should strive to guide people in the right direction, but let them decide what they like. I don't think saying, "you're wrong! do it my way" is the best approach.

 

[bobbrews]

You're going off on a tangent now. The topic was, Victory and Special B in an IPA?

The title itself with the ? mark indicates that the OP himself was not sure if this was even a smart idea. If a beginner is looking for advice/critique on a recipe before they brew it, then I am going to provide it based on my experience and opinions so they don't fail or end up disappointed. I'm not going to say, "Hey, jump off that bridge... it killed a friend of mine, but maybe you'll survive!" That's stupid, and I'm sorry you don't see it.

IPAs are not sweet and malty... they are bitter and hoppy.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, now that we've got that out of the way-

I'm not disagreeing with Bob, as I don't tend to like very sweet IPAs as a rule. But you've heard our thoughts on the matter, and a few others.

I definitely have only one IPA with a lot of crystal malts that I like, and they are not special B dark crystal malt but instead lighter crystal malts.

Special B is great in certain beers, or maybe in small amounts in something like an IPA. For example- I wouldn't hesitate to use 1.5 pounds of a dark crystal in Arrogant Bastard to counterbalance the strong chinook. But for most beers, it's overkill and even a little is discernible.

A little victory is nice in many beers, but too much gets to be too much rather quickly. .25-5 pound might be very nice with a nice toasty flavor, but I'd lean toward the "less is more" approach with it.

All that to say that I'd reduce the special B for sure (well, I'd be more inclined to not use it in an IPA, but if you like it I mean) and consider reducing the victory to .25 pound. Victory will give a toasty flavor in a smaller amount,

 

[bobbrews]

See I don't believe in the whole counterbalance / balance thing for innately bitter style beers. Bitter is what they are supposed to be!! Pliny is 340 IBUs Rager and that IIPA is very smooth without a harsh bitterness despite using a bunch of early hops and on the surface seeming very harsh.

Too many people try to design IIPA recipes toward balance, and pay too close attention to IBUS. Once you exceed 100 theoretical IBUs, it doesn't really matter anymore. This is the top amount that could possibly be contained in the final beer anyway. Science says so and so do your taste buds. Therefore, why are you counting further and striving for balance in a beer style with an intended forward bitterness?

A little victory could be nice in an IPA... as could a little special b... But IMO, not a pound or more of it. This changes it from being a bitter beer into a more sweet/malty version of a basic/generic hoppy beer with no style that we know of... maybe a low abv barleywine. Does this seem logical or not?

 

[J343MY]

You're going off on a tangent now. The topic was, Victory and Special B in an IPA?

The title itself with the ? mark indicates that the OP himself was not sure if this was even a smart idea. If someone is looking for advice/critique on a recipe before they brew it, then I am going to provide it based on my experience and opinions so they don't fail or end up disappointed. I'm not going to say, "Hey, jump off that bridge... it killed a friend of mine, but maybe you'll survive!" That's stupid, and I'm sorry you don't see it.

All I'm saying is that you seem to not be content with just giving advice, you have to be right. You are adamant that your way is best, as we can see earlier in this thread.

Thats all I'm going to say, I don't feel like discussing this further.

 

[bobbrews]

All I'm saying is that you seem to not be content with just giving advice, you have to be right. You are adamant that your way is best, as we can see earlier in this thread.

Thats all I'm going to say, I don't feel like discussing this further.

People who call out others like you have, based on the particular advice they give, is a defense mechanism that indicates that person is unconfident in their own knowledge/experience. In the future, try to focus on you and not me.

It's not about proving right or wrong. It's about providing advice on the question(s) asked based on experience and educated opinions on the style of beer that is being questioned.

 

[Yooper]

People who call out others, based on the particular advice they give, is a defense mechanism that indicates that person is unconfident in their own knowledge/experience. In the future, try to focus on you and not me.

Last time. Knock it off.

State your opinion, and then move on. There is no need for arguments, and if the need to be right is so strong that people can't move on, they will be forced to move on- to another forum.

 

[bobbrews]

Opinion was stated. I moved on, others did not.

 

[Yooper]

Opinion was stated. I moved on, others did not.

but, you're still posting....................................

Let it go. Really.

 

[hillhousesawdustco]

I had to look it up- "unconfident" IS actually a word. It just SOUNDS ridiculous.

Good luck with your IPA, Original Poster Monsieur (guessing dude, no idea though) gruveb. Don't worry about all this huffnpuff, I promise the forum is quite a lovely resource for homebrewers.

 

[gruveb]

Yes...thank you. I'm going to cut the special B way back...I'm currently drinking a maibock that I loved at first, but as I'm working through the batch it's a bit too sweet for me. Hopefully I'll brew this weekend, if my Amarillo hops show up, and whenever they do, I'll take good notes and let you know.

I do appreciate the feedback. It gave me some perspective and things to consider.

 

[Tantalus]

I think it's worth a shot, though I'm a big fan of maltiness even in my hoppy beers. I think your hop schedule could use a little adjusting, particularly if you want to get the full flavor and aroma out of both your hops. I'd do this:

1.5 oz Amarillo at 85
2 oz cascade at 15
1.5 oz Amarillo at flame out
1 oz cascade at flame out

If you keg I'd dry hop with Amarillo in the keg as well.

 

[tennesseean_87]

i think it's worth a shot, though i'm a big fan of maltiness even in my hoppy beers. I think your hop schedule could use a little adjusting, particularly if you want to get the full flavor and aroma out of both your hops. I'd do this:

1.5 oz amarillo at 85
2 oz cascade at 15
1.5 oz amarillo at flame out
1 oz cascade at flame out

if you keg i'd dry hop with amarillo in the keg as well.

+1

 

[gruveb]

I went with the following:

11.5 # Maris Otter
1 # Victory Malt
4 oz Special B

70 minute mash at 152

90 Minute boil

1 oz cascade at 85
1 oz cascade at 45
1 oz amarillo at 15
1 oz amarillo at flame out (similar to the hop timing schedule for the AB clones)

Hit my OG of 1.062

Yeast was WLP007. Fermented at 66-68 degrees starting Sunday evening, 3/10. Almost finished now (3/15) at 1.012.

Here's my question...should I oak it when racking, leave it a week, then dry hop it for another week?

Thank you again for the help. The beer seems quite tasty to me right now!

 

[Hoser_brewing]

A little late to the game, I know, since OP has already brewed, but I've used (in two diff IPA's) up to a # of victory (gave a very toasty, almost overwhelmingly victory-y beer), and an Arrogant Bastard-esque beer with a # of Spec. B (strongly malty stone fruit, pronounced perceived sweetness, despite being 1.014 FG, from 1.073.)

In both these beers I bittered to 70ish IBUs and they were fairly balanced. Wouldn't add a full pound of either to an IPA again, but usually toss in 1/4 # of victory to most of them.

When I've oaked beers, I added near the end of the first week of fermenting (day 4-7, around 85% of total fermenting), then let it sit 2 weeks to get the taste out of the wood. This was 2 oz of med American chips. Gave a decent oak taste, not too much. Did not like with English hops (weird vegetal), but liked with chinook/CTZ mix.

 

[gpack]

IMHO-

I've got a Special B/Biscuit in the can right now that I am glad I only used a 1/2 pound of Special B Some C10, Biscuit and 2 Row. I am really enjoying the offset of sweetness on the large amount of high alpha hops. I mashed at 148 for 90 min, FWH with 2 ounces of Columbus, used Centennial and Columbus and Simcoe at 20/15 and FO. Got it from .068 to .012 with WLP.

Side note- I would save the amarillo to use where I can taste/smell it. and get my bitter punch with something a little more high alpha than cascade.

Side Note 2- I f you want to taste Special B in an IPA look to Green Flash Hop Head Red. I think. that is a heavy amarillo beer too.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I went with the following:

11.5 # Maris Otter
1 # Victory Malt
4 oz Special B

70 minute mash at 152

90 Minute boil

1 oz cascade at 85
1 oz cascade at 45
1 oz amarillo at 15
1 oz amarillo at flame out (similar to the hop timing schedule for the AB clones)

Hit my OG of 1.062

Yeast was WLP007. Fermented at 66-68 degrees starting Sunday evening, 3/10. Almost finished now (3/15) at 1.012.

Here's my question...should I oak it when racking, leave it a week, then dry hop it for another week?

Thank you again for the help. The beer seems quite tasty to me right now!

I am very interested to see how this recipe turned out. How did you like it?