Using Starsan in Sparge Water

[MrBinsky]

I did a search for this and didn't come up with any threads, so I thought I'd post it. For the better part of the last year, my buddy and I have been using starsan to drop the ph of our sparge water. I know this sounds weird, but hear me out.

The reasoning is that when collecting wort, you want to collect as much as possible, however, you don't want your runnings to get below 1.010 or you risk extracting tannins. This, of course, is because as you sparge more and more water, the ph of your mash will rise. Tannins aren't extracted in water with a ph below 6, but once the ph rises above 6, you get tannins.

Now, just to clarify, we usually cut off runnings before 1.010 anyway, but we just want to be sure not to extract ANY tannins. We literally just put about 1 or 2 tiny drops of starsan in our few gallons of sparge water and that is enough to drop the ph from around 8 to 5. We of course verify this with a ph meter. The amount of starsan is so small that it does absolutely nothing to the taste of the water, and in all honesty, us homebrewers accidentally get more starsan in our finished beer anyway between using it to sanitize various things such as carboys, kegs, buckets, and bottles.

I had my reservations at first, and I let my brew buddy do it on a few of his batches before I did it on mine. (It was his idea.) Once his beer came out great, with no noticeable difference, I started doing it to mine. We've probably brewed around 15 batches using this method, and it's worked great.

Anybody else ever try this? Any thoughts or questions?

 

[hunter306]

I've never heard of using a sanitizing chemical as a brewing water adjustment. Why not just use a standard acid?? What benefit does star san offer other than being something you had on your shelf.

Also, how much do you normally need to add to get the adjustment in pH you're after?

My initial reaction would be: no thanks.

 

[Terek]

Starsan will do nothing to your beer, or anything else for that matter. When I bottle, I will dump a half gallon of starsan on the yeast cake and use that to wash. I used to boil water, but it can be a pain. I have NEVER had a problem with this and my yeast is always fine. I have topped off buckets that were a gallon or so short with strait starsan out of my sanitizing bucket, no ill effects what so ever. It does nothing to your beer or the flavor. I even keep a sprey bottle in the kitchen for cleaning, prepping food, pretty much everything.

The truth is, starsan is cheep, 99.9% effective, adds no flavors, odors, or textures to anything you get it on. I used to be a chef, and when I started brewing I literally said "where have you been all my life" The stuff is amazing

 

[MrBinsky]

I've never heard of using a sanitizing chemical as a brewing water adjustment. Why not just use a standard acid?? What benefit does star san offer other than being something you had on your shelf.

Also, how much do you normally need to add to get the adjustment in pH you're after?

My initial reaction would be: no thanks.

The reasoning for starsan is that it is very cheap. Other acids are much more expensive. We looked into using other acids, but we already have starsan and since it doesn't do anything to the flavor, we just never got around to buying more acid which we don't need.

We only use one or two very small drops to adjust the ph of multiple gallons of water. In fact, our preferred method for adding the starsan is to dip the tip of a thermometer into the bottle of starsan and then just dip that small amount into the water.

 

[phug]

I've never heard of using a sanitizing chemical as a brewing water adjustment. Why not just use a standard acid?? What benefit does star san offer other than being something you had on your shelf.



Also, how much do you normally need to add to get the adjustment in pH you're after?



My initial reaction would be: no thanks.

When the chemical in question is mostly phosphoric acid, and the whole thing is food grade and no rinse, and safe to drink at normal concentrations it makes sense. I asked the same question myself but no one ventured to try it.

Thank you OP. You may have saved me my next purchase of lactic acid. And being able to make starsan go from single purpose to multipurpose. That's just fantastic.

 

[ajdelange]

If you sent me a sample of your water and asked me to measure its alkalinity I would do just what you did: insert a pH electrode and add acid. If the pH drops quickly with a very small acid addition I would know that the alkalinity of your water is very low. There is, therefore, no need to acidify your sparge water. It will not absorb protons from the mash components.

Starsan is simply phosphoric acid with a wee bit of detergent (sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate I believe) in it. I wouldn't want that in my beer (even though it is not considered a hazardous substance i.e. I don't think there are published exposure limits etc. for it) even in small quantities. Thus I would recommend desisting from the use of Starsan which, as you don't need it anyway, would not be a problem for the quality of your beer. If you feel you want to lower sparge water pH anyway I suggest you get some phosphoric or lactic acid from the LHBS for this purpose or if rigid economy is the goal a bit of lemon juice should reduce the pH enough to make you happy without adding noticeable flavor. Try this and taste the treated water.

 

[MrBinsky]

If you sent me a sample of your water and asked me to measure its alkalinity I would do just what you did: insert a pH electrode and add acid. If the pH drops quickly with a very small acid addition I would know that the alkalinity of your water is very low. There is, therefore, no need to acidify your sparge water. It will not absorb protons from the mash components.

Starsan is simply phosphoric acid with a wee bit of detergent (sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate I believe) in it. I wouldn't want that in my beer (even though it is not considered a hazardous substance i.e. I don't think there are published exposure limits etc. for it) even in small quantities. Thus I would recommend desisting from the use of Starsan which, as you don't need it anyway, would not be a problem for the quality of your beer. If you feel you want to lower sparge water pH anyway I suggest you get some phosphoric or lactic acid from the LHBS for this purpose or if rigid economy is the goal a bit of lemon juice should reduce the pH enough to make you happy without adding noticeable flavor. Try this and taste the treated water.

I use RO water, so yes the alkalinity is very low. Just a question, if you don't want sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate anywhere near your beer, then do you not use starsan?

 

[ajdelange]

I use RO water, so yes the alkalinity is very low.

Absolutely no need to acidify this for sparging.

Just a question, if you don't want sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate anywhere near your beer, then do you not use starsan?

No I don't but I don't see a problem with it used as intended. I didn't mean to imply that the small amounts of it you probably introduce are going to cause head collapse in your beers and cancer in your drinkers. Just that the though of detergent in my beer creeps me out. Anyway, its moot with RO water.

 

[Terek]

Starsan is simply phosphoric acid with a wee bit of detergent (sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate I believe) in it. I wouldn't want that in my beer (even though it is not considered a hazardous substance i.e. I don't think there are published exposure limits etc. for it) even in small quantities.

so what do you sanitize your equipment with? If you sanitize anything with starsan, there is no possible way to not get any in your beer. You will get some liquid/foam no matter what.

 

[ajdelange]

It depends. Iodophor followed by boiled water rinse or a blend of nitric/phosphoric acids (for beerstone profylaxis) followed by a boiled water rinse or, for kegs, steam.

 

[Terek]

sounds like a lot of work. Especially when the industry has created such a wonderful, cheep, and easy alternative. Im not gonna knock your process. What works for you, works for you.

But IMO, I have done this for A LONG TIME, and have never seen any ill effects from the use of starsan.

 

[max384]

I'll pass. I use Star San to sanitize... But I'd prefer not to add detergents to my beer.

And yes, I know that some of the detergent gets into the beer if used as a sanitizer, but that amount is so infinitesimally small compared to directly adding Star San to the wort.

 

[hunter306]

I'll pass. I use Star San to sanitize... But I'd prefer not to add detergents to my beer.

And yes, I know that some of the detergent gets into the beer if used as a sanitizer, but that amount is so infinitesimally small compared to directly adding Star San to the wort.

Exactly my sentiments.

I imagine if your water only requires minor adjustments (a drop or two) it's not going to be a big deal... But in my case, I work with VERY hard water which is slow to react to acidic ph modifications. I'd be adding 8-9ml to get the reaction I'm after.

I'll stick with Lactic Acid 88%

 

[EthanWalker]

I'm a new brewer, so I can't say much, but I thought the reason starsan is so safe is because it is neutralized once the higher pH of the mash touches it. So if you add it to the sparge water the pH would lower but the instant is touches the mash it would be neutralized.

And I can't believe people are so leery about 3 drops of starsan in sparge water. I've had a carboys half full of foam with wort going in them. It just means you know its sanitized.

 

[max384]

I'm a new brewer, so I can't say much, but I thought the reason starsan is so safe is because it is neutralized once the higher pH of the mash touches it. So if you add it to the sparge water the pH would lower but the instant is touches the mash it would be neutralized.

And I can't believe people are so leery about 3 drops of starsan in sparge water. I've had a carboys half full of foam with wort going in them. It just means you know its sanitized.

The acidity will not neutralize in the mash. pH neutralization is when the pH reaches 7.

I believe you mean that small amounts of starsan will not have much effect on the mash. This is because of the small numbers of protons (what makes the pH in acid low), as compared with the large amount of mash.

Regardless, this is only taking into account the acid, not the detergents. I don't think anyone is worried too much about the acid in Starsan; we're concerned about the possible effects the higher amounts of detergents could have on the beer.

A whole carboy full of foam from watered-down Starsan has far less actual Starsan than even a few drops of concentrated Starsan.

 

[philosofool]

The detergent is non-toxic. You certainly can't taste .2mL of starsan in 5 gallons of beer. I know a brewery that uses phosphoric acid to lower pH post fermentation. Phosphoric acid is an ingredient in coca-cola. I know "detergent" is a nasty word, but there's not an evidence that this particular detergent is nasty.

 

[Terek]

1

 

[Terek]

The detergent is non-toxic. You certainly can't taste .2mL of starsan in 5 gallons of beer. I know a brewery that uses phosphoric acid to lower pH post fermentation. Phosphoric acid is an ingredient in coca-cola. I know "detergent" is a nasty word, but there's not an evidence that this particular detergent is nasty.

For real, you all are acting like its some kind of bio hazard. When mixed properly, there are only like 3-4 drops per gallon to get the sanitization effects. I could see a problem if you are putting like an oz in, but that is WAY overboard. Its a teaspoon per 5 gal

 

[Terek]

The detergent is non-toxic. You certainly can't taste .2mL of starsan in 5 gallons of beer. I know a brewery that uses phosphoric acid to lower pH post fermentation. Phosphoric acid is an ingredient in coca-cola. I know "detergent" is a nasty word, but there's not an evidence that this particular detergent is nasty.

For real, you all are acting like its some kind of bio hazard. When mixed properly, there are only like 3-4 drops per gallon to get the sanitization effects. I could see a problem if you are putting like an oz in, but that is WAY overboard. Its a teaspoon per 5 gal

 

[Terek]

The detergent is non-toxic. You certainly can't taste .2mL of starsan in 5 gallons of beer. I know a brewery that uses phosphoric acid to lower pH post fermentation. Phosphoric acid is an ingredient in coca-cola. I know "detergent" is a nasty word, but there's not an evidence that this particular detergent is nasty.

For real, you all are acting like its some kind of bio hazard. When mixed properly, there are only like 3-4 drops per gallon to get the sanitization effects. I could see a problem if you are putting like an oz in, but that is WAY overboard. Its a teaspoon per 5 gal

 

[ajdelange]

I'm a new brewer, so I can't say much, but I thought the reason starsan is so safe is because it is neutralized once the higher pH of the mash touches it. So if you add it to the sparge water the pH would lower but the instant is touches the mash it would be neutralized.

Well yes, in this application (adjusting the pH of sparge water) phosphoric acid is neutralized by the base bicarbonate ion to produce the 'neutral' and innocuous monobasic phosphate ion. Monobasic phosphate is found in appreciable quantity in malt and other cereal grain products. There is quite a bit of it in sodas (formerly called 'phosphates' for this reason but they also contain a fair amount of phosphoric acid). Many breweries use phosphoric acid to 'neutralize' water alkalinity and malt alkalinity because it is reasonably flavorless.

I don't think anyone here is concerned about the phosphate. The apparent avaersion is to the idea of DDBS addition. Clearly in the sanitizing application very little of this will end up in the beer. If you are neutralizing water that is alkaline to the extent that you would have to use a lot of Starsan to knock it out you would be adding proportionally more DDBS.

 

[max384]

For real, you all are acting like its some kind of bio hazard. When mixed properly, there are only like 3-4 drops per gallon to get the sanitization effects. I could see a problem if you are putting like an oz in, but that is WAY overboard. Its a teaspoon per 5 gal

You aren't mixing it properly. As per the instructions from Star San, you should mix 1 oz per five gallons, which is about 6 teaspoons per five gallons.

And regardless, we're discussing adding the sanitizer directly to the mash, not using it as a sanitizer.

 

[Quaker]

Unintentionally I way overshot pH in my recent batch due to StarSan. I have an RO filter I hook up when needed to stock up on brewing water and store it in buckets. Two of those buckets had been sanitized with Starsan prior to being filled with my RO water. It would have only been residue on the walls, but in RO it was enough to drop the pH. I had added salts calculated on my grist and RO. When I measured the mash pH I was sub 5. After some head scratching, I'm pretty sure that had to be my cause since it was my only change from previous batches.

 

[ajdelange]

Naturally if you add acid to something which contains no base (RO water) the pH is going to plummet because there is nothing to absorb the protons. When you add that RO water to the mash those protons are available to neutralize bases in the mash. If the mash otherwise contains enough proton sources to come to a desirable mash pH the ones from the water will take it lower.

 

[MrBinsky]

For anybody who is really freaked out by this, take a few things into consideration:

We are talking about 1 or 2 tiny drops in 5 gallons of water and half of that doesn't even ever make it out of the mash tun. If you have a ph meter and are skeptical about this, take a gallon of RO and put in the tiniest drop you can. Really, I mean tiny. Then test the ph. It should drop like crazy even from such a small amount. You'll be shocked. Then taste the water. I guarantee you won't be about to tell the difference. And even if you can taste that it's more acidic, it definitely won't taste detergenty. Anybody who has used starsan in a carboy knows that a crap-ton of foam stays in the carboy and everybody says "Don't fear the foam." I'm sure that foam contributes more starsan than this small amount added to the sparge water.

 

[ajdelange]

We are talking about 1 or 2 tiny drops in 5 gallons of water and half of that doesn't even ever make it out of the mash tun. If you have a ph meter and are skeptical about this, take a gallon of RO and put in the tiniest drop you can. Really, I mean tiny. Then test the ph. It should drop like crazy even from such a small amount. You'll be shocked.

See #24 but also see #21.

 

[Terek]

You aren't mixing it properly. As per the instructions from Star San, you should mix 1 oz per five gallons, which is about 6 teaspoons per five gallons.

And regardless, we're discussing adding the sanitizer directly to the mash, not using it as a sanitizer.

Funny, been mixing it that way for like 5 years and have never had an infection. Seems my way works just fine

 

[MrBinsky]

Yes I read those posts before posting.

I'm not talking about making major adjustments with super alkaline water. I'm talking about using RO water and a negligible amount of foodsafe, no-rinse sanitizer. (As I've said, most people get more in their finished beer through normal sanitizing practices.)

I know that grains will naturally drop the ph of the mash. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the washed grains loose that ability. Thus, the acidified sparge water.

 

[MrBinsky]

Funny, been mixing it that way for like 5 years and have never had an infection. Seems my way works just fine

I honestly think the suggested amount is waaaaay overkill, but I have very alkaline water, so I just use the suggested amount. The stuff is cheap and I'd rather be safe. But I'm sure the amount you've been using is fine.

 

[max384]

Funny, been mixing it that way for like 5 years and have never had an infection. Seems my way works just fine

That's interesting. Do you clean separately with a cleaner such as One Step?


I use Star San as a cleaner and sanitizer, using their suggested mixing directions. I know that Star San is not supposed to be a cleaner, just a sanitizer, but, much like you, it has worked for me for a number of years with no infections.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes I read those posts before posting.

I'm not talking about making major adjustments with super alkaline water. I'm talking about using RO water and a negligible amount of foodsafe, no-rinse sanitizer.

Ah, then you should see #6 which says there is no need to do this as RO water has unappreciable (2.5 ppm as CaCO3) alkalinity.

I know that grains will naturally drop the ph of the mash. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the washed grains loose that ability. Thus, the acidified sparge water.

Perhaps you read #24 but don't understand what it is saying.

Base malts don't have the ability to lower mash pH. Acid must be added to do that. Acid must also be added to water to lower its pH. The amount of acid required to lower each grain to a desired pH is called its proton deficit. The proton deficit of a kg of Maris Otter with respect to pH 5.4 is 14 mEq. You must add that much acid to it to get it's pH to 5.4. If you mix that with 3 L of water of alkalinity 100 you have a proton deficit, wrt pH 5.4 of another 5.2 meq and you need that much more acid. If you use RO water, however, its deficit (RE 5.4) is only 0.15 mEq and you only need to add the 14 mEq. None for the water (or so little you can ignore the requirement). The RO water does not contain any base (assumining for purposes of simplified explanation that it is effectively deionized). It will not, when used to sparge a mash, pull the pH of the wort higher because it is not a proton absorber. In fact the mash will pull its pH down (the mash has appreciable buffering, the water 0). Now in the real world RO water isn't deionized. It, in fact, contains a bit of acid (carbonic acid ) and will probably have a pH of 6 or a bit below. There is, therefore, no need to add any acid to it whatsoever. If you do add acid to it then you will have added more acid than you need and the mash pH will go lower than it would otherwise. If you have only added a tiny bit then the pH shift will be small and not something you need worry about. But why bother when it essentially does nothing?

 

[MrBinsky]

Ah, then you should see #6 which says there is no need to do this as RO water has unappreciable (2.5 ppm as CaCO3) alkalinity.


Perhaps you read #24 but don't understand what it is saying.

Base malts don't have the ability to lower mash pH. Acid must be added to do that. Acid must also be added to water to lower its pH. The amount of acid required to lower each grain to a desired pH is called its proton deficit. The proton deficit of a kg of Maris Otter with respect to pH 5.4 is 14 mEq. You must add that much acid to it to get it's pH to 5.4. If you mix that with 3 L of water of alkalinity 100 you have a proton deficit, wrt pH 5.4 of another 5.2 meq and you need that much more acid. If you use RO water, however, its deficit (RE 5.4) is only 0.15 mEq and you only need to add the 14 mEq. None for the water (or so little you can ignore the requirement). The RO water does not contain any base (assumining for purposes of simplified explanation that it is effectively deionized). It will not, when used to sparge a mash, pull the pH of the wort higher because it is not a proton absorber. In fact the mash will pull its pH down (the mash has appreciable buffering, the water 0). Now in the real world RO water isn't deionized. It, in fact, contains a bit of acid (carbonic acid ) and will probably have a pH of 6 or a bit below. There is, therefore, no need to add any acid to it whatsoever. If you do add acid to it then you will have added more acid than you need and the mash pH will go lower than it would otherwise. If you have only added a tiny bit then the pH shift will be small and not something you need worry about. But why bother when it essentially does nothing?

No need to be condescending. The RO water may have very little buffering capacity but it still has some. It isn't distilled, after all. On my next batch I'll forgo the starsan and measure the ph of the water above the grainbed throughout the sparge process. If it doesn't change, great. You're right and I'll stop using starsan. However, if it raises, especially if it raises above 6 then I'll continue using starsan.

 

[Aonghus]

I did a search for this and didn't come up with any threads, so I thought I'd post it. For the better part of the last year, my buddy and I have been using starsan to drop the ph of our sparge water. I know this sounds weird, but hear me out.

The reasoning is that when collecting wort, you want to collect as much as possible, however, you don't want your runnings to get below 1.010 or you risk extracting tannins. This, of course, is because as you sparge more and more water, the ph of your mash will rise. Tannins aren't extracted in water with a ph below 6, but once the ph rises above 6, you get tannins.

Now, just to clarify, we usually cut off runnings before 1.010 anyway, but we just want to be sure not to extract ANY tannins. We literally just put about 1 or 2 tiny drops of starsan in our few gallons of sparge water and that is enough to drop the ph from around 8 to 5. We of course verify this with a ph meter. The amount of starsan is so small that it does absolutely nothing to the taste of the water, and in all honesty, us homebrewers accidentally get more starsan in our finished beer anyway between using it to sanitize various things such as carboys, kegs, buckets, and bottles.

I had my reservations at first, and I let my brew buddy do it on a few of his batches before I did it on mine. (It was his idea.) Once his beer came out great, with no noticeable difference, I started doing it to mine. We've probably brewed around 15 batches using this method, and it's worked great.

Anybody else ever try this? Any thoughts or questions?

I think your idea is brilliant.

 

[Terek]

That's interesting. Do you clean separately with a cleaner such as One Step?


I use Star San as a cleaner and sanitizer, using their suggested mixing directions. I know that Star San is not supposed to be a cleaner, just a sanitizer, but, much like you, it has worked for me for a number of years with no infections.

I clean all my stuff with hot water at the end of the day, but when the next brew day comes, i just use star san as a cleaner and sanitizer. I have found over the years that people get way out of hand when it comes to sanitization. The only time i get real hardcore is when yeast washing, and bottling. Mainly cuz a lot of my bottles have had a mouth on them.

 

[bracehelton]

I have a few ideas too. Add sour cream to your finished berliner to achieve a tart, cloudy product you can be proud of. PBW is an alkaline cleaner... Screw chalk or baking soda, add PBW to raise pH in the mash for those stouts and porters. Malt has sugar, but so does my daughters morning breakfast, I'm using her Lucky Charms for my to get my desired extract. It's a matter of purpose; lactic/phosphoric acids are meant to act as such, ACIDS. Stars san is a sanitizer, I prefer to use it accordingly. And besides, as said many times previously, RO water does not need to be acidified. It's about as blank of a slate as one could possibly get.

 

[Terek]

I have a few ideas too. Add sour cream to your finished berliner to achieve a tart, cloudy product you can be proud of. PBW is an alkaline cleaner... Screw chalk or baking soda, add PBW to raise pH in the mash for those stouts and porters. Malt has sugar, but so does my daughters morning breakfast, I'm using her Lucky Charms for my to get my desired extract. It's a matter of purpose; lactic/phosphoric acids are meant to act as such, ACIDS. Stars san is a sanitizer, I prefer to use it accordingly. And besides, as said many times previously, RO water does not need to be acidified. It's about as blank of a slate as one could possibly get.

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward. I think my next brew I will put lucky charms into my mash. Hell, it could be the next big thing and I could make millions selling it. Just saying, dont be so closed minded

 

[MrHadack]

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward.

Nah, that's not really the case here. This is more along the lines of "I can't be bothered to do it the right way so I found a shortcut that isn't as good, but gets the job done." Remember in the 80s when Austrians used diethylene glycol in their wine? BRILLIANT! New way of doing things! Moved the Austrian wine industry forward!

 

[chisena]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that dipping your thermometer in StarSan and stirring sparge water with it would have any recognizable effect on your finished product.

 

[Terek]

Nah, that's not really the case here. This is more along the lines of "I can't be bothered to do it the right way so I found a shortcut that isn't as good, but gets the job done." Remember in the 80s when Austrians used diethylene glycol in their wine? BRILLIANT! New way of doing things! Moved the Austrian wine industry forward!

And what is the right way? the way you say to do it? you just dont get it. This thread is so far off topic its sickning. If you all have such a problem with star san and its so unsafe and poisonous, lets just outlaw it and stop using it. My god.

 

[The_Bishop]

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward.

And, occasionally, *your* type of thinking results in Darwin Awards.

I brew with RO water, and I acidify with 88% Lactic Acid. I don't acidify my sparge water, as there's no need. It can't be a cost thing, as I'm still on my original 5 oz. container after a year of brewing. So little is needed that it goes a *long* way.

You've got a double whammy here. 1: Acidifying RO sparge water that doesn't need it. 2: Doing it with a substance that is meant to sanitize, not be consumed in any real quantity.