Hey guys I'm looking for a new challenge. Considering trying a dog fish 120 clone recipe. It includes adding oxygen during fermentation . Anyone have any tips on how I can use oxygen, with minimal cost without compromising my ale?
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Using oxygen in big beers
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robtotten
Well-Known Member
Aquarium pump with a filter is a good option. You need to add oxygen during or before fermentation?
You use oxygen in all beers before fermentation. The yeast need oxygen to reproduce and for a healthy fermentation. Make sure you make a BIG starter for this beer and aerate well. I use a paddle attachment for my drill that aerates the wort. Some people just shake the heck out of the fermenter.
You have lots of options, it all depends on your bank account and personal preference.
If money is no object, the go with disposable O2 tanks with an aeration stone. They can dissolve a large amount of oxygen in a short amount of time; less than a minute typically.
Next I'd say aquarium pump with in-line filter. Good clean oxygen. It takes more time to aerate but in the long run costs are much lower since you don't have to keep buying O2 tanks. You get clean O2, but it takes much longer (upwards of 20-30 minutes)
There's also the paint stirrer/degasser option. One time cost, quick operation are the primary benefits. Basically, buy an inexpensive attachment to a drill and after a minute or two your wort is both whirl pooled and aerated with the surrounding air.
Last, I'd say the old shake and pray method. I think you understand the premise behind that one.
Ravenshead
Well-Known Member
Try this if you want to use O2.
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAMS-OXYGEN-AERATION-SYSTEM-P699.aspx
Ive tried it but I usually find a heathy aeration at pitching is sufficient.
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAMS-OXYGEN-AERATION-SYSTEM-P699.aspx
Ive tried it but I usually find a heathy aeration at pitching is sufficient.
Sorry, no offense meant but I really wouldn't bother with this. It does not add any more 02 than vigorously shaking your carboy will. If you really want to oxygenate your beer, you're going to need to spring for the williams brewing 02 wand like another member posted above me. I did a fair amount of research before I brewed a westvleteren 12 clone and trust me, if you really care about the 02, it's the way to go. It's really a very nice product, the wand keeps the stone where you want it instead of floating around. I had vigorous fermentation in less than 5 hours, something I had never seen happen before. The beer is still several months away from finishing but I went from an OG of 1.094 to my terminal FG of 1.012 in 5 days. :rockin:
It is 50 bucks though, so think carefully as to whether you will be brewing many high OG beers in your brewing career. If not, then I'd say skip it, and maybe get one of those wine degasser whips that hooks up to a drill, that'll give you the max 02 you can get from atmosphere without much fuss I've heard. Or just shake the hell out of it. Mostly, just make sure you have a big ol' starter or many dry yeast packs.
One more plug for the wand; it's just nice to have, period. I haven't brewed since the first time I used it, but I've read that others have experienced really short lag times on any beer they use it on. If you have most of the brewing toys you want, why not? Think of it this way, brew one batch of 120 or any high gravity beer and the thing pays for itself.
rexbanner said:
Everything I've read on O2 including Chris white's book says you can only get more in with a stone and pure o2. Shaking, stirring, and splashing and aquarium pumps all do about the same and about half of pure o2
You can put in the o2 and then 4or so hours later repeat aeration. I think White said with a high grav that something like this should be done as long as before 12hours. And iirc it was pure o2 he was recommending this with
waddsworth
Well-Known Member
Meh. I bought a few ceramic air stones from aquatic eco systems, a stainless tube from McMaster Carr, and an inline HEPA from Williams. Total cost, with pump, was about $35. I never have issues with lag time or strong fermentations.
Aquarium pump does not equal pure 02. To clarify, I meant using pure 02. Also to clarify, the post I was referencing was referencing not using pure 02.
Right, that's fine. You can do many things without issue. If you really want to get the appropriate 02 volume for big beers, you are going to need to use pure 02. From the research I have done and the knowledgeable people I have talked to, an aquarium pump basically saves you the trouble of shaking your carboy, and will never achieve the 9-10 volumes of O2 necessary for very big beers. Spend 15 more bucks. Don't mean to be a dick.
Bierliebhaber
Well-Known Member
Yes, on big beers it is good practice to add more o2 around 6-10 hours in, but not after 12hrs.
http://www.homebrewchef.com/120_Minute_IPA.htm
Here's the recipe. Calls for 4 days of 02. 30mins each
Here's the recipe. Calls for 4 days of 02. 30mins each
+1
The recommendation really is no more than within the first 12-18 hours, and that's ONLY for big beers.
Here's the info from an older post of mine;
It caused quite a stir when it first came out a couple years back at a conference Chris White of Whitelabs presented that info about adding 02 within 12 hours of a big beer. IIRC there was some pretty heated arguments on here. But yes it is recommend for big beers that you give it a second period of aeration within the first 12 hours after yeast pitch. Before enough fermentation has happened to have to worry about oxydation. !2 hours and for beers above 1.080 I think.
I just heard it last week on Basic Brewing radio...It was in the NHC follow up. Shocked the crap out of me when I heard it...
It was during the I-view with Chris White from White Labs.
Considering he makes the yeasts, methinks he'd know.
July 3, 2008 - NHC Wrapup Pt. 1
Steve joins James as they begin their collection of interviews gathered from experts at the National Homebrewers Conference in Cincinnati. This week: Dave Wills, Michael Ferguson and Chris White.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr07-03-08nhcwrapup01.mp3
It's about 3/4's of the way into the I-view...
Considering he says that we need 10-12 PPM's of oxygen for good fermentation and vigorous shaking is only good for 2 ppm's, hitting a stuck fermentation @ under 10-12 hours with a minute of O2 may be may be just the thing. Especially for really big beers.
It was a good discussion here;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/adding-oxygen-during-fermentation-71456/
I'm all for a post yeast pitch blast of O2....but BEFORE it begins to turn into real beer......within the first 12 hours...but with already a 20 point drop in gravity, I still maintain that you don't want too much o2 exposure now...
Flyguy gives a good elaboration on it...
If I'm not mistaken that 120 clone uses 2 yeasts. I think they start out with 1056 then once that fizzles out they go with fresh 1 litre yeast starter of a high gravity yeast. I remember something about dosing the batch every day for so many days with more sugar to get the high attenuation and alcohol levels
as far as aeration after 12-18 hours. White Labs has a page where they talk about aeration up to 5 days. give it a read
http://whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_super.html
as far as aeration after 12-18 hours. White Labs has a page where they talk about aeration up to 5 days. give it a read
http://whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_super.html
It's important to note that that is for THAT yeast, and for beers with an abv of 16% or above. It doesn't say ALL high grav beers, or all yeast.
I wouldn't follow that advice for beers smaller than that (even my 12% barleywine) or with a different yeast.
robtotten
Well-Known Member
I have gimpy wrists and hands, and by the end of a brew day I never feel like shaking 10 gallons of beer for 10 minutes. The aquarium pump doesn't work as well as pure O2 certainly, but it gets the job done.
For those that are using the Williams 02 kit..
How hard/high are you running the 02? We picked this kit up mainly just because we got tired of shaking the buckets. So far the results have been mixed on lag time and finishing gravity, so I'm not sure if we are using this properly.
How hard/high are you running the 02? We picked this kit up mainly just because we got tired of shaking the buckets. So far the results have been mixed on lag time and finishing gravity, so I'm not sure if we are using this properly.
And then i read other posts and info saying 45 seconds is enough. It seems when I've run it at a really low rate (like you described) that it really isnt even enough to create a foamy surface on the wort.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
I don't have gimpy arms, but I don't much like the idea of shaking a glass carboy full of wort that I just slaved 4 hours to make. I used an aquarium pump for awhile and then decided to just buy an oxygen tank and go with that. I've had some impressive fermentations since then, both in terms of lag times and attenuation.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
There was a recent brewstrong episode about aeration if you're interested. Jamil I think says 1LPM (liter per minute) for 1 minute will get you to about 8ppm - which is where you want to be. Higher ppm may be necessary for certain yeasts or larger OG beers, looked like 2 minutes gets you about 12ppm. Now the trick is figuring out the flow rate without a meter. You can buy a flow meter on ebay for pretty cheap (~$30). You can also put 1L of water in a balloon and note the size. Then try to get your oxygen setup tuned so that you can fill a balloon to that size in 1 minute. I haven't tried it yet, but it seemed like it just might work.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
I don't think lag-time is necessarily a good indicator of anything other than...lag-time. If anything, more O2 should actually increase lag time because the yeast have more O2 with which to reproduce. For anything other than huge beers, it shouldn't affect attenuation much if at all either. You should reach the limit of attenuation without having to use O2. People have done it for centuries. This is one reason why people will say they've never used pure O2 and 'never had any problems' (which is THE worst arguement of all time for why one should do anything brewing related, you can **** just about everything up and often the yeast will make beer in spite of your FUBARs).
People have and will continue to make great beer without using O2 but generally speaking, happier/healthier yeast make better beer. I use it in all starters, big beers, and lagers but for a typ ale I usually don't even bother.
People have and will continue to make great beer without using O2 but generally speaking, happier/healthier yeast make better beer. I use it in all starters, big beers, and lagers but for a typ ale I usually don't even bother.
I guess i'm just struggling with it then. First use, I had it open a little more than i probably should have. Got great foam on top, but blew through a bottle after the 3rd batch that day
Now i'm been barely opening it, but fermentations arent as strong and I have been having 1.5 day lag time where before it was about half of that.Yea, i guess I'm concerned but not really concerned. Just trying to get a better feel for how much/long to use it. The beers are still turning out good and did seem to ferment quicker.
when you use pure O2 you still need to beat it into the wort unless you have an expensive diffuser. Boiling removes the oxygen. So even if you are using an aquarium stone with pure O2, you still have to put it back into the total solution. 1 minute to two @ 1 litre per hour moving up through a small colum in the fermenter doesn't do it.
I take and run the O2 hose into the paddles slits, then run the O2 for 15 seconds moving the paddle around, then beat the wort some, then add another shot of O2, then beat the wort again. Up to three or four dosings like that.
Big beers you may need to do 4 times the amount you need for an average brew.
The colder the wort solution the more O2 it will hold. Cold contracts making smaller bubbles allowing more to fit into the solution so it's best to do it when chilled down.
If you are using a aquarium pump I think they talk about 15 minutes running on a diffuser for a normal 5 gal batch
I take and run the O2 hose into the paddles slits, then run the O2 for 15 seconds moving the paddle around, then beat the wort some, then add another shot of O2, then beat the wort again. Up to three or four dosings like that.
Big beers you may need to do 4 times the amount you need for an average brew.
The colder the wort solution the more O2 it will hold. Cold contracts making smaller bubbles allowing more to fit into the solution so it's best to do it when chilled down.
If you are using a aquarium pump I think they talk about 15 minutes running on a diffuser for a normal 5 gal batch
waddsworth
Well-Known Member
One of the things I do to help reduce time and increase O2 in solution is that I place my wand with diffuser into my carboy before I fill it with chilled wort. The positive pressure of clean air (goes through a HEPA) helps keep my carboy sanitary too. When I'm ready to fill my carboy I use a tube that's long enough to create a siphon inside the keggle, but at the same time doesn't hang too far inside the carboy, maybe just past the neck. That way the chilled wort will run down the sides of the carboy and/or splash at the bottom. This creates a bit of a venturi effect as well as increases the surface area exposed to O2. By the time the carboy is full I've likely gotten as much O2 into solution as I'm going to get. Oh, and then I have to carry the carboy downstairs to my ferm chamber, which gives it another good shake just for good measure.
scottland
Well-Known Member
I'm just starting my DFH 120 minute clone, so oxygenating wort, was a big concern for me. I decided to go the olive oil route:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-olive-oil-instead-oxygen-47872/
I've got a thread going for my clone, you should check it out if you plan on brewing it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/dfh-120-minute-clone-259314/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-olive-oil-instead-oxygen-47872/
I've got a thread going for my clone, you should check it out if you plan on brewing it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/dfh-120-minute-clone-259314/
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
Interesting.. did you verify that with an oxygen meter? According to Jamil Z and John Palmer (and Chris White, as they quoted an excerpt from Jamil and his book): 2 minutes at 1Lpm will result in 12ppm. Nothing special done, no splashing required. It's true that most of the oxygen is being absorbed at the surface though and not in the column of bubbles rising to the surface from the stone.
It's all about dissolved oxygen into the solution
I don't own a dissolved oxygen meter..
The only thing I have as far as testing.. is doing it both ways many different times, and the results from one way, verses the other are much better when I beat the wort.
When you look at the amount of yeast starter from a stirplate Jamil uses, you can see why he isn't concerned as much about needing to saturate the solution with O2.
When breweries introduce the oxygen, they are injecting it into the wort as it passes through the pipe line. Some homebrewers have made devices that allows the aquarium stone to sit in the stream of chilled wort as it passes through to the fermenter, injecting the wort with O2 as it passes by. this would be the best way to aerate the solution.
If you add O2 in a bucket from the bottom with a standard stone, most of it goes straight up in a small colume and out of the wort. If you are using a top cropping yeast, the O2 on top will help some, but if you are using a bottom cropping yeast the majority of the wort solution itself doesn't have much if any O2
If the yeast doesn't have O2 in the solution for the uptake phase it will just start producing alcohol. If the yeast has O2 for uptake stage it with start making more yeast.
Here's information to read on aeration
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm
I don't own a dissolved oxygen meter..
The only thing I have as far as testing.. is doing it both ways many different times, and the results from one way, verses the other are much better when I beat the wort.
When you look at the amount of yeast starter from a stirplate Jamil uses, you can see why he isn't concerned as much about needing to saturate the solution with O2.
When breweries introduce the oxygen, they are injecting it into the wort as it passes through the pipe line. Some homebrewers have made devices that allows the aquarium stone to sit in the stream of chilled wort as it passes through to the fermenter, injecting the wort with O2 as it passes by. this would be the best way to aerate the solution.
If you add O2 in a bucket from the bottom with a standard stone, most of it goes straight up in a small colume and out of the wort. If you are using a top cropping yeast, the O2 on top will help some, but if you are using a bottom cropping yeast the majority of the wort solution itself doesn't have much if any O2
If the yeast doesn't have O2 in the solution for the uptake phase it will just start producing alcohol. If the yeast has O2 for uptake stage it with start making more yeast.
Here's information to read on aeration
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm
A lot of O2 bubbles out, but a lot of it stays in solution as well. It's a bit of a false dichotomy looking at the O2 bubbling out as proof it doesn't stay in.
"Beating" it in will only help get some of the oxygen that's escaped and formed a cushion at the top back into solution. In a bucket fermentor, you're going to cause most of that oxygen to disperse. A carboy with a narrow neck will hold it in even better.
However, saying that Jamil Z. isn't concerned about saturating the wort is pure ignorance. Though funnily enough it's technically correct, as "saturating" the wort with oxygen (>20ppm) is way too much, and bad enough for the beer that'd you'd be better off just shaking the fermentor without O2 in order to aerate. But Jamil doesn't pitch large amounts of yeast, he pitches CORRECT amounts of yeast, as he's well aware that much of the flavor compounds are created during the reproductive phase. And unlike you, he DOES know how much O2 is getting into his beer (usually 10-12ppm). Those are great levels for most strains, and for the strains with higher oxygen requirements, he gives them even more oxygen. And he doesn't "beat" in his oxygen. If you think he's simply using large starters, then that would indicate your starters are actually too small. Trying to compensate for underpitching by overoxygenating is far from ideal. Granted, there are styles where doing this intentionally might even be a good idea, but as a general rule, it's not. The yeast can only reproduce so much anyways, no matter how much O2 you give them, and that relationship is far from linear (diminishing returns). There are several consequences of this relationship, and none of them are desirable.
So what good is beating it in? It's probably more efficient. If you're not doing it, then everything that bubbles out is wasted O2. But it's also at the cost of consistency, which is important ESPECIALLY for people who don't have a DO meter. And it would seem it's only more efficient if you're careful - once that O2 blanket is gone (dissolved and dispersed), you're going to be beating the pure oxygen OUT OF the wort (with simple air taking its place), much like "beating" wine is done to de-gas it. Either way, oxygen is not so expensive that I'm going to bother sacrificing consistency for the sake of using less of it.
I should also probably point out that top-cropping vs bottom-cropping is not an important difference. The oxygen is needed before the yeast would get to that point anyways, and even if it weren't, it'd only be accessible to the very top layer.
BTW, your very own link indicates that simply oxygenating through a sintered stone is capable of up to 26ppm, FAR more oxygen than any yeast strain could benefit from.
"Beating" it in will only help get some of the oxygen that's escaped and formed a cushion at the top back into solution. In a bucket fermentor, you're going to cause most of that oxygen to disperse. A carboy with a narrow neck will hold it in even better.
However, saying that Jamil Z. isn't concerned about saturating the wort is pure ignorance. Though funnily enough it's technically correct, as "saturating" the wort with oxygen (>20ppm) is way too much, and bad enough for the beer that'd you'd be better off just shaking the fermentor without O2 in order to aerate. But Jamil doesn't pitch large amounts of yeast, he pitches CORRECT amounts of yeast, as he's well aware that much of the flavor compounds are created during the reproductive phase. And unlike you, he DOES know how much O2 is getting into his beer (usually 10-12ppm). Those are great levels for most strains, and for the strains with higher oxygen requirements, he gives them even more oxygen. And he doesn't "beat" in his oxygen. If you think he's simply using large starters, then that would indicate your starters are actually too small. Trying to compensate for underpitching by overoxygenating is far from ideal. Granted, there are styles where doing this intentionally might even be a good idea, but as a general rule, it's not. The yeast can only reproduce so much anyways, no matter how much O2 you give them, and that relationship is far from linear (diminishing returns). There are several consequences of this relationship, and none of them are desirable.
So what good is beating it in? It's probably more efficient. If you're not doing it, then everything that bubbles out is wasted O2. But it's also at the cost of consistency, which is important ESPECIALLY for people who don't have a DO meter. And it would seem it's only more efficient if you're careful - once that O2 blanket is gone (dissolved and dispersed), you're going to be beating the pure oxygen OUT OF the wort (with simple air taking its place), much like "beating" wine is done to de-gas it. Either way, oxygen is not so expensive that I'm going to bother sacrificing consistency for the sake of using less of it.
I should also probably point out that top-cropping vs bottom-cropping is not an important difference. The oxygen is needed before the yeast would get to that point anyways, and even if it weren't, it'd only be accessible to the very top layer.
BTW, your very own link indicates that simply oxygenating through a sintered stone is capable of up to 26ppm, FAR more oxygen than any yeast strain could benefit from.
hitecgmblr
Well-Known Member
dumb question, what if you kept a "trickle" of O2 going in the fermenter for the first few days?
First, Not anywhere in my post did I say anything about underpitching.
When I was talking about the amounts of yeast jamil is using built from a stirplate, I was talking about more viable yeast counts compared to what most homebrewers do by using a traditional starter method(no stirplate).
Like you say he has the tools to take readings of what he has now, How many homebrewers do? I wouldn't be surprised if he just pitches more vials rather then waste time building starters anymore. I'm sure he gets his yeast for free from whitelabs or brewerys.
At $6.50 a vial, how many homebrewers are going to buy three or four vials for a 5 gallon batch. you'd be surprised at how many homebrewers just use 1 wyeast smack pack for a 5 gallon batch.
The other thing I mentioned about him not being that concerned about the O2 levels was that if you pitch enough healthy yeast, there is less need for aeration or building more yeast. The yeast you pitch is viable enough to ferment the batch just by going right to work eating sugars and making alcohol.
Yeah the page does say you get the best results using a expensive defuser. It's not a small stone that we homebrewers are using that they are talking about
they are talking more inline with something like this with a large surface area
Like I said before I get better results by 15 seconds of pure O2 then beat and repeat three more times, then I do just letting it bubble through the stone for 1 minute
BTW Denny Conn uses a wine degasser on a drill, but uses it in reverse. Instead of leaving it under the surface and running it to degauss, he whips the air or O2 from above into the solution. same way I do when beating SO the O2 DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE SOLUTION IT GOES IN
When I was talking about the amounts of yeast jamil is using built from a stirplate, I was talking about more viable yeast counts compared to what most homebrewers do by using a traditional starter method(no stirplate).
Like you say he has the tools to take readings of what he has now, How many homebrewers do? I wouldn't be surprised if he just pitches more vials rather then waste time building starters anymore. I'm sure he gets his yeast for free from whitelabs or brewerys.
At $6.50 a vial, how many homebrewers are going to buy three or four vials for a 5 gallon batch. you'd be surprised at how many homebrewers just use 1 wyeast smack pack for a 5 gallon batch.
The other thing I mentioned about him not being that concerned about the O2 levels was that if you pitch enough healthy yeast, there is less need for aeration or building more yeast. The yeast you pitch is viable enough to ferment the batch just by going right to work eating sugars and making alcohol.
Yeah the page does say you get the best results using a expensive defuser. It's not a small stone that we homebrewers are using that they are talking about
they are talking more inline with something like this with a large surface area
Like I said before I get better results by 15 seconds of pure O2 then beat and repeat three more times, then I do just letting it bubble through the stone for 1 minute
BTW Denny Conn uses a wine degasser on a drill, but uses it in reverse. Instead of leaving it under the surface and running it to degauss, he whips the air or O2 from above into the solution. same way I do when beating SO the O2 DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE SOLUTION IT GOES IN
For the first few hours (up to 12 depending on OG and such) it would probably be possitive, but after that, it would harm the beer - basically to get what you want from the yeast, you have to force them into anaerobic production. If left to aerobic production, they don't produce very much alcohol or tasty by products.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
He's got his own brewery now, I'm fairly certain he's not pitching vials.
On the brewstrong show, he was talking about how he was getting oxygen flowmeters for his brewery - he's obviously very concerned with getting the proper amount of oxygen into the wort and being consistent. In any case, it sounds like whatever you're doing is working for you and not causing variability from batch to batch - that's what's important. I'll continue to do my 2 minutes of pure oxygen through the williams aeration wand as I've been very happy with my yeasts' response to that.
