Upgrade/auto control help

[BowAholic]

If I have a high gravity manual EBC II and would like to be able to preset a temp instead of watching, taking temp readings, and adjusting manually... what would be the easy fix and would it fit into the existing box? Would I be better off just starting from scratch as all I need is a control for a single 240v 5500w element BIAB for my 20 gallon BK doing 15 gallons of water max.
thanks!

 

[iijakii]

Sell it and buy something with a PID.

 

[augiedoggy]

Heres a quality, but inexpensive (by comparison to what you have) option
http://jaggerbushbrewing.com/PID-CONTROLLER-220-VOLT-30-AMP_p_21.html

Since you HG box has a lifetime warranty you should ask if they offer trade in deals for upgrades...

 

[BowAholic]

thanks...I like the unit that you linked...that looks like what I want to be able to do. I need to learn more about these controllers...but it appears that mine would need a PID to do what I want...? Maybe I just need a link to a simple build for controlling temperatures...no pump needed... I don't think...

 

[augiedoggy]

thanks...I like the unit that you linked...that looks like what I want to be able to do. I need to learn more about these controllers...but it appears that mine would need a PID to do what I want...? Maybe I just need a link to a simple build for controlling temperatures...no pump needed... I don't think...

That would be a very good alternative if you feel comfortable , They are easy to build really. and if you already have the cords and outlets your half way there..

You just need a an enclosure box (like the carlon boxes at home depot) a pid (my fav is the mypin TD4-SNR with manual pwm mode built in to work like your current setup for boiling mode like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-PID-Te...hash=item1ea9ebc313:m:mCrMbBJCYBgfAGyb5MprPJw) and an rtd sensor (pt100 is ideal) as well as an ssr (this is a great deal and a quality ssr http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-40A-S...963267?hash=item5b1e280583:g:MWoAAOSwo0JWJzxJ) The fotak ssr's work but are not as reliable. you could possibly use your ssvr that you currently have too, I'm not sure.

you may want to get a small 3 pin xlr connector if you want to connect the rtd at the panel end. otherwise I recommend one of these for easy kettle removal and cleanup http://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-T...959914?hash=item3ab3ff5b6a:g:kbUAAOSwAYtWINyv the teflon corded ones are actually superior to the stanless braided ones from my experience with both. The stainless ones catch on things and kink easily.


If you search here theres plenty of build threads.. and a member named PJ has posted many nice wiring diagrams..

good luck!

 

[WScottCross]

you could possibly use your ssvr that you currently have too, I'm not sure.

SSVR's work differently, they are variable resistors that are controlled by a potentiometer normally. That are not designed to operate like an SSR. The SSR uses a discreet "ON" signal (3-24VDC typically) to turn the output on and off and the SSVR varies the output voltage based on the potentiometer input.
You need an SSR if you plan to use a PID controller.

 

[BowAholic]

this all sounds great and is very appreciated... I will pull up the links later today. Would there be a build using these parts somewhere...? I'm not being lazy and I have ready dozens of threads, but have not found one with just the right build ... yet.
thanks again!
Bob

 

[doug293cz]

this all sounds great and is very appreciated... I will pull up the links later today. Would there be a build using these parts somewhere...? I'm not being lazy and I have ready dozens of threads, but have not found one with just the right build ... yet.
thanks again!
Bob

I can draw up a schematic for you. Do you think you will ever want any 120V outlets or accessories in the panel? Makes a difference on whether you run a three wire (H-H-G) or four wire (H-H-N-G) feed to the panel, so affects choice of wire and plugs/sockets. These are fairly pricey items, so you don't want to have to replace them in the future if you don't have too.

Brew on

 

[BowAholic]

I can draw up a schematic for you. Do you think you will ever want any 120V outlets or accessories in the panel? Makes a difference on whether you run a three wire (H-H-G) or four wire (H-H-N-G) feed to the panel, so affects choice of wire and plugs/sockets. These are fairly pricey items, so you don't want to have to replace them in the future if you don't have too.

Brew on

not sure, but I'm thinking I do not need 120v on it since I have outlets all over my shop that I can use. I just plan on adding a 5500w element to my kettle for BIAB. Any help would be awesome...
thanks!

 

[jeffmeh]

If you are running a new circuit, I would recommend hhng. Not much incremental expense for the capability.

 

[BowAholic]

the unit will be operating in my shop. I currently have 30 amp heaters/tools, and a 50 amp welder. I bought a new spa disconnect with a 50 amp GFCI that I will use for the project. It does have room for two 120v breakers if I need them. I plan on getting a 5500w stainless element and have looked at the Hot Pods for the attachment/enclosure. They look like an easy inexpensive and safe product. It looks like I need a good PID and SSR...looking at the Mager 40A Solid State Relay and Auber SYL-2362/TC-K3 PID as recommended. That's as far as I've gotten... I will also purchase a box from HD or Lowes, but I'm not sure what size is best for this.
thanks!

 

[doug293cz]

the unit will be operating in my shop. I currently have 30 amp heaters/tools, and a 50 amp welder. I bought a new spa disconnect with a 50 amp GFCI that I will use for the project. It does have room for two 120v breakers if I need them. I plan on getting a 5500w stainless element and have looked at the Hot Pods for the attachment/enclosure. They look like an easy inexpensive and safe product. It looks like I need a good PID and SSR...looking at the Mager 40A Solid State Relay and Auber SYL-2362/TC-K3 PID as recommended. That's as far as I've gotten... I will also purchase a box from HD or Lowes, but I'm not sure what size is best for this.
thanks!

So, are you wanting to use a type K thermocouple or RTD-100 as the temp probe? If using a thermocouple, you need to use special connectors if you want to be able to plug and unplug the probe from the control box. If you use commodity connectors, then you will have voltage offsets due to the cold junction materials being incorrect.

Brew on

 

[BowAholic]

So, are you wanting to use a type K thermocouple or RTD-100 as the temp probe? If using a thermocouple, you need to use special connectors if you want to be able to plug and unplug the probe from the control box. If you use commodity connectors, then you will have voltage offsets due to the cold junction materials being incorrect.

Brew on

the RTD-100 was suggested... I use a basket in my BK and was thinking I would pop rivet short legs onto the bottom of the basket to keep it above the element. I'm hoping that I can also put the RTD Pt100 below the basket?

I'm retried and semi-intelligent but a total newb at the electronics part of this...I have build two temp controllers using the stc-1000...

 

[doug293cz]

Ok, so here is what I put together for a simple, 240V only, 1 element, 1 PID controller.



If your spa panel has larger than a 30A breaker feeding it from the main panel, then you need to wire from your main panel to the spa panel, and the spa panel to your control panel with wire large enough for the main panel breaker rating, and have the 30A breaker (or 30A fuses) in the control panel. For a 50A main breaker you need 6AWG wire, and for a 40A breaker you need 8AWG. If the breaker in the main service panel is 30A, then you don't need the breaker in the control panel, and you can wire from main panel to spa panel, and spa panel to control panel with 10AWG wire.

The "fat" wires in the control panel schematic after the breaker are all 10AWG. The thin wires can be down as low as 20AWG.

Component PN's are examples only. Equivalent parts can be substituted.

Let me know if you have questions.

Brew on

 

[darrinvw02]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=382286

Has all of the PJ wiring diagrams. The first one is very similar to what you are looking for.

 

[TexasWine]

Maybe I just need a link to a simple build for controlling temperatures...no pump needed... I don't think...

I'd recommend a pump. If you don't use a pump with a PID controller you run the risk of the controller turning the element on and scorching the wort. A pump keeps things moving around, preventing the scorching and ensuring consistent temperatures.

The other option is for you to stand there and stir the entire duration of the mash. Not an appealing option in my opinion

 

[BowAholic]

Ok, so here is what I put together for a simple, 240V only, 1 element, 1 PID controller.

View attachment 330741

If your spa panel has larger than a 30A breaker feeding it from the main panel, then you need to wire from your main panel to the spa panel, and the spa panel to your control panel with wire large enough for the main panel breaker rating, and have the 30A breaker (or 30A fuses) in the control panel. For a 50A main breaker you need 6AWG wire, and for a 40A breaker you need 8AWG. If the breaker in the main service panel is 30A, then you don't need the breaker in the control panel, and you can wire from main panel to spa panel, and spa panel to control panel with 10AWG wire.

The "fat" wires in the control panel schematic after the breaker are all 10AWG. The thin wires can be down as low as 20AWG.

Component PN's are examples only. Equivalent parts can be substituted.

Let me know if you have questions.

Brew on

I have the 2362 PID, SSR, an reset zb2-be102, LEDs, a Leviton 3032 30amp switch, 5500W element, brewhardware hot pod, 80 qt kettle, and a 30 amp welder cord to attach my stuff to an existing 3 prong GFCI welding outlet...not spa panel needed/used. I have ordered a all needed plugs/cords, a Detachable RTD PT100 2" , and an SSR heat sink. A friend is giving me fuse holders/fuses and also has some simple toggle switches if I need any. My thoughts are to do something like your diagram, maybe without the 'kill' switch, and I was thinking about using the 30 amp Leviton to kill all incoming power to my control box by putting it where the breaker was/is in your diagram? or would it be better to just have it Kill power to the element and use something else to kill power to the PID as you show using the keyed switch? I do not have an electronic SWITCH/CONTACTOR listed, but I have a Safe Start Interlock Relay - 220V Coil. I was told it wouldn't work in the states? If I need to I will order the contactor/coil.
thanks!
Bob

 

[doug293cz]

I modified the drawing to remove the contactor and use a DPST switch (like the Leviton 3032 series) to control the main power to the panel. "Fat" lines are 10 AWG wire, and the "thin" lines can be as fine as 20 AWG. This is about as simple as a control panel can get.



Brew on

 

[RedlegEd]

@doug293cz. I'm just curious on your drawing. It looks like you have a "hot" wire from each of the 120V line legs going to the PID #1 & #2. Where is the neutral/ground to complete the power circuit on the control side? I only see ground to the element. Shouldn't PID #2 be a neutral?

 

[BowAholic]

@doug293cz. I'm just curious on your drawing. It looks like you have a "hot" wire from each of the 120V line legs going to the PID #1 & #2. Where is the neutral/ground to complete the power circuit on the control side? I only see ground to the element. Shouldn't PID #2 be a neutral?

He's probably trying to make it work for me I have power coming off a 3 prong welding outlet that only has 2 hots and a ground, no neutral.

Thanks doug293cz! I am curious though... why does it look like the original drawing has a 240v contactor but I was told that my MK2P-NS AC220 General Purpose Relay wouldn't work because I needed 110v in the US? No matter since my 30amp switch will work.

thanks again!
Bob

 

[BeardedBrews]

Shouldn't PID #2 be a neutral?

The Auber can run on 85-260volts, He can keep everything in the box 240 that way, as long as he doesn't need to drive a 120v pump.

-B

 

[augiedoggy]

All the pids used by homebrewers (rex,mypin, auber, clones and inkbird ) that I know of will run on 85-260v because they actually use that power for a 24v dc internal power converter/supply that the pid actually runs on...

 

[RedlegEd]

All, thanks. I get the 240V in the box (and for the PID,) but my understanding is for a complete circuit you need a neutral or ground to balance the hot line (s). I didn't think a 120V hot to 120V hot gave you a complete circuit. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand. Thanks.

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz. I'm just curious on your drawing. It looks like you have a "hot" wire from each of the 120V line legs going to the PID #1 & #2. Where is the neutral/ground to complete the power circuit on the control side? I only see ground to the element. Shouldn't PID #2 be a neutral?

The PID will work over a range of power supply voltages (85V - 260V, 50 - 60Hz.) This particular circuit is designed to work from a 240V outlet that is H-H-G (no neutral available.) Line 1 and Line 2 are 180˚ out of phase with each other, so Line 2 provides a current return for Line 1, and vice versa, no neutral is required for a complete circuit.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

He's probably trying to make it work for me I have power coming off a 3 prong welding outlet that only has 2 hots and a ground, no neutral.

Correct.

Thanks doug293cz! I am curious though... why does it look like the original drawing has a 240v contactor but I was told that my MK2P-NS AC220 General Purpose Relay wouldn't work because I needed 110v in the US? No matter since my 30amp switch will work.

thanks again!
Bob

You are welcome. You could drive the MK2P-NS AC220 from 240V, but you would be a little over its rated coil voltage of 220V. That relay is spec'ed to work at either 50Hz or 60Hz. However, the contacts are only rated for 10A, so cannot be used to control power to a 23A load (a 5500W element @ 240V.) Not sure where else it could be of use in a simple panel like the one you are talking about.

Brew on

 

[BowAholic]

Correct.


You are welcome. You could drive the MK2P-NS AC220 from 240V, but you would be a little over its rated coil voltage of 220V. That relay is spec'ed to work at either 50Hz or 60Hz. However, the contacts are only rated for 10A, so cannot be used to control power to a 23A load (a 5500W element @ 240V.) Not sure where else it could be of use in a simple panel like the one you are talking about.

Brew on

I really appreciate the help. I see that there are no fuses in the latest diagram, but I have access to them if I need them. I'll also use a couple of LEDs that I already have to show power is on.
Bob

 

[doug293cz]

I really appreciate the help. I see that there are no fuses in the latest diagram, but I have access to them if I need them. I'll also use a couple of LEDs that I already have to show power is on.
Bob

Look again. The fuses are still there for the power connections to the PID, just moved. No need to fuse the 10AWG wiring, as it is protected by the 30A GFCI breaker.

Brew on

 

[BeardedBrews]

I didn't think a 120V hot to 120V hot gave you a complete circuit.

Each of the "Hot" 120v legs are alternating back and forth between + and - 120V. So at any time the highest voltage you can get is 120.

The trick is, the two hot 120v legs coming into your panel are opposites. When one is at +120v the other is at -120v. If you connect the two of them you get the difference of 240 total volts.


It's like a tug-of-war. Using the neutral is like one guy pulling on a rope tied to the wall. You get twice as much power to the rope if you use two guys and have them pull opposite directions at the same time.

 

[RedlegEd]

Thanks. That makes sense. Wasn't thinking about the phasing.