Unidentifiable off flavors

[pepindavid]

Yeah, the fact that it's not there pre-boil makes me thing that it's probably related to water chemistry, rather than tannins. I've read somewhere that very high sulfates may yield some astringency. The thing is: if my city's water report is to be believed, even with the additions I made, it should be way below the threshold for astringency. I may just try first without any additions, and if that doesn't work, then try RO.

Or maybe it just needs some time to mellow out. My first batch did not mellow out really, but it has other problems (high ferm temp, and high mash temp, so it's hard to distinguish). My second batch (and IPA) has been bottled for almost 2 weeks; I tasted it 1 week ago, and I thought it was a bit harsh (no the nice, wanted bitterness). I'll try it tonight.

Anyways, I didn't want to highjack your thread; just wanted to know if what you had was similar.

 

[chipwitch]

Nothings wrong with 74F for yeast or people. but with any non-belgian yeast, if you want it to make something that you actually want to drink and you ferment at 74F, youre gonna have a bad time...

look up swamp cooler setups. cheap and easy way to shave 7-8 degrees off your room temp

I've got a handle on temp control now. I bought a couple plastic tubs at Home Depot. They're like 7 bucks and come in real handy for spill prevention. About 6 inches deep and hold about 10 gallons. The last brew (AG, FB though), I put some water in it along with the fermenter and then daily throw in a one gallon ice chunk. Not great control, but it keeps the fermenter between 64 and 68. The time before that (partial mash, I think) I didn't use water. Just a couple frozen milk jugs with a blanket over everything. Kept the fermenter around 70. Obviously the extra mass of the most recent version is better.

Also, I want to point out, one of the 2 of the LME brews in question were with Belgian yeast strains. Safeale Abbaye (dry) and Wyeast Abbey II (liquid)

 

[pepindavid]

On second thought... I could see how a little more of this flavor could be called harsh. Could be the same. Maybe not. It isn't really a bitter though. Are you doing full or partial boil?

When you say the wort tastes good pre-boil, is that before or after you remove the bag of grain for the last time?

I do a full boil, BIAB style. Also, that "good taste" pre-boil was right before the boiling point (before first hop addition), when I took a preboil gravity reading (with refractometer, to get an idea of my efficiency). No astringency whatsoever at point in time.

And I have to say : I can't find a better word then "harsh bitterness", but it's not that similar to the high bitterness you'll find in DIPA, for example. It's more "punchy", not lasting long, almost spicy.

 

[chipwitch]

Yeah, the fact that it's not there pre-boil makes me thing that it's probably related to water chemistry, rather than tannins. I've read somewhere that very high sulfates may yield some astringency. The thing is: if my city's water report is to be believed, even with the additions I made, it should be way below the threshold for astringency. I may just try first without any additions, and if that doesn't work, then try RO.

Or maybe it just needs some time to mellow out. My first batch did not mellow out really, but it has other problems (high ferm temp, and high mash temp, so it's hard to distinguish). My second batch (and IPA) has been bottled for almost 2 weeks; I tasted it 1 week ago, and I thought it was a bit harsh (no the nice, wanted bitterness). I'll try it tonight.

Anyways, I didn't want to highjack your thread; just wanted to know if what you had was similar.

Firstly, don't sweat the "hijack". We're just having a discussion, right?

Second, after thinking about it some more, I tasted my worts post boil and LOVED them! Tasted like a kind of sweet tea. I could drink it like that. Being partial boil's they were a little concentrated. Full of flavor. So, compared to your issue there's a difference. But, it does remind me that this is going on in the fermenter on my part.

How long are you leaving your brews in the fermenter on the yeast cake? Probably won't help much, but a thought.

Also, you didn't mention how you handle chloramines? Are you preboiling your water, using campden tablets, filtering?

 

[pepindavid]

Also, you didn't mention how you handle chloramines? Are you preboiling your water, using campden tablets, filtering?

I usually leave it on the yeast cake for 3 weeks.

I just Campden tablets for chlorine (my city uses liquid chlorine, bit chloramines). But the dosage is a bit iffy (I brew small batches for now, about 2 gallons, and since one tablet is for 20 gallons, I try to use "half of a quarter" of the pill, if that makes any sense.

 

[chipwitch]

I do a full boil, BIAB style. Also, that "good taste" pre-boil was right before the boiling point (before first hop addition), when I took a preboil gravity reading (with refractometer, to get an idea of my efficiency). No astringency whatsoever at point in time.

And I have to say : I can't find a better word then "harsh bitterness", but it's not that similar to the high bitterness you'll find in DIPA, for example. It's more "punchy", not lasting long, almost spicy.

Got it. If you're going for hoppy beers, I could see it being the hops. All mine are light hop styles, maltier, sweeter beers (Scottish, Irish Red, Belgian Dark Strong and a Belgian Dubbel). I don't presume to know more than you by any means... Sounds like we're both in a similar place experience-wise.

If you're harshness is hops, and they can be harsh at first, have you used the same hop for all the beers? How does tasting the hops compare to the post boil wort? I would think that might help identify if the harshness is hop related. Just a thought.

 

[pepindavid]

If you're harshness is hops, and they can be harsh at first, have you used the same hop for all the beers? /QUOTE]

No, I used Cascade on the first, Centennial, Cascade and Amarillo on the second, and Willamette on the third. All with a similar "harshness" right before fermentation. That's why I'm suspecting either the water chemistry (somehow extracting "harshness" from the hops), or my slow cooling method, where hops utilization may occur after flameout, before it gets down to under 120, or something like that.

Before changing too much my process, I'll try to see if that perceived harshness is still there after 2-3 weeks bottle conditioning (or more); it was there on the first, but I don't know yet for batch 2 and 3.

Thanks for the ideas! Always nice to discuss these things and try to figure out the problem!

 

[brewprint]

What's wrong with 74F?

This is south Florida. We only get about 5 days a year where we don't see that temperature at some point during the day.

That's an oven to me. I live in Northern Ohio and go on vacations farther north and in the mountains. Needless to say I like it cold.

I turn on the AC at 65.

 

[chipwitch]

That's an oven to me. I live in Northern Ohio and go on vacations farther north and in the mountains. Needless to say I like it cold.

I turn on the AC at 65.

HA! Unless you're independently wealthy, you wouldn't if you lived here! My electric bill is a car payment in the summer

 

[pepindavid]

Before changing too much my process, I'll try to see if that perceived harshness is still there after 2-3 weeks bottle conditioning (or more); it was there on the first, but I don't know yet for batch 2 and 3.

OK, so I tried batch no 2 yesterday; the "harshness" is no longer there, really, but the bitterness is quite present (the hop aroma not strong enough; I didn't dry hop enough for an IPA). Soooo, I think I'm overshooting my IBUs because of the full boils + slow cooling process. At least that's my theory!

 

[chipwitch]

OK, so I tried batch no 2 yesterday; the "harshness" is no longer there, really, but the bitterness is quite present (the hop aroma not strong enough; I didn't dry hop enough for an IPA). Soooo, I think I'm overshooting my IBUs because of the full boils + slow cooling process. At least that's my theory!

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. Since yours are heavily hopped and mine are light, I wonder if that could be masking it for you? Maybe the combination makes it taste harsh? I mean, hops taste like ass, if we're being honest. Most "seasonings" do, if you get down to it. Sometimes two flavors can clash synergistically. Maybe that's where the harsh comes from?

How long is it taking you to cool down? Most people take 20 minutes, it seems from what I've read, to 30 minutes to get under 100. Then, there are recipes that do a 90 minute boil. I'm finding it hard to imagine that a normal BIAB, 60 minute brew could be responsible for harsh flavors as a result of missing your IBU's. I can see the bitter being a little more or less, but not harshness. Are you getting the harshness up front, on the finish or throughout the swallow? Mine is only on the end, though I can smell it too.

I don't know if it's true because I've never tried it, but some people say first wort hopping produces mellower flavors too?

 

[pepindavid]

Now that I think of it, I may brew a lightly hopped beer next time, and see if that taste is still there. It's more an "up-front" harshness, taking you by surprise at the upper back of the mouth, a bit up the nose, that doesn't last very long.

 

[GnenieGone]

This may be a fool's folly, but I'm trying to find out if someone can help me identify what's wrong with my ales. The first 4 all have it. It seems a little less noticible the more recent the beer. All were done within about 2 weeks of each other. If anything, it seems to be getting a little better with age, but not much. There's a flavor, that I don't like but can't describe. A couple of friends have tried it (I don't know any homebrewers except my local store). They can taste it, don't care for it but like me, can't describe it. I've searched numerous threads for "off flavors" and I dont' think it tastes like any of them... horse sweat, sour, butter, bitter, wet cardboard, medicine, band-aid, alcohol etc. It hits you on the finish.

The first two are kits from Northern Brewer and were brewed within a week of receiving, so I think it's safe to rule out old ingredients. All were liquid extract bought on different occasions. 3 from NB and one from my LHBS, a special order 33lb Breiss jug. All were golden malt except one had some maris otter as well. All were partial boils. I've only ever used Star-san for sanitation. One was on the stove. The rest on a propane burner. All were different strains of dry yeast (fresh Safeale or Wyeast) but one which was purchased local, Wyeast abbey and was only like 6 weeks old. I've since made some other beers that I don't detect the flavor. If all my beer will taste like this... I'll be looking for a new hobby. Also, the beer styles.... Karl's ninety shilling, Belgian Dubbel, Irish Red and a Strong Dark Ale. As you can see I prefer malty beers.

One reason I suspect partial boil is that the first batch I made, I didn't account for evaporation. Lost more than I expected. Using a 4 gallon pot, I'm guessing there may have been as little as 2.5 gallons of liquid at the end of the boil. I was careful in all cases to dissolve the extract off the burner. In at least one case, I dissolved the extract before heating. After the first brew, I tried to get as much water in the pot as possible. The last two, I would add a cup or so of water during the boil every few minutes... not enough to cool it down, but enough to replenish the evaporate.

Also, the first couple, I may have rushed the bottling a little but the last two were in the fermenter for a month to six weeks. Could this be the lees? I've had commercial ales that are bottle conditioned, on lees and love them... I don't taste anything "off." However, I don't cold crash and maybe I have excess lees? I haven't noticed any huge amounts of sediment or anything.

I don't have great temp control, but my house is a constant 74F. Since I've stuck with Safeale 05, and 04 and Wyeast's Abbaye ale for dry and a belgian dubbel liquid, I wouldn't think that temperature would be a huge concern.

I did take a bottle of my Karl's ninety to my lhbs. A few people tried it. No one said anything bad about it, but the clerk swears it's how its supposed to taste. I don't buy it. When pressed for more input, he acted like he didn't want to be bothered. The other people who tasted it kept silent. I think they were just being kind. It was obvious they didn't care for it.

I know it's hard to advise without being able to taste it, but I'm hoping someone will have had a similar experience and can enlighten me?

I haven't read through all the suggestions so I'll just give short ones.

1) Get temp controlled. Mine is very simple. The kettle is big enough to put the bucket in. I top with water and put an aquarium pump where the water lines goes to a copper coil located in a cooler which I fill with ice water. So the water temperature around the bucket can be easily maintained. The temp controller is a SCT-1000, like $14 on amazon. This was the biggest difference in the "WTF flavor is that?" like you had. I no longer detect that warm fermentation temp flavor. Edit: This is my 2nd shot at home brewing. I quit the first time because of exactly what you said. Live in central Texas, didn't have temp control on carboys. Beer just never came out like I wished. It's like night and day temp controlling.

2) Make sure anything/everything is sanitized properly. LHBS dudes say how surprised i'd be how many HB'ers don't think sanitation is important. That's just silly. I've made GOOD retail quality beer and I sanitize everything with at least a spray before touching cool wort/beer; packets of hops/yeast, sizzors, strainers, spoons, bottles, caps, hands and obviously buckets/lids.

3) I would suggest a simple smash pale ale type recipe. Something not too exotic. Pilsner/Mosaic smash for example. Not much can go wrong.

4) I always pitch 2 packets of safeale5, it's cheep and worth it. Some things can go wrong with liquid. I'd keep to dry for now. Oh, and make sure your pitching at the correct temp.

5) Wanted to add, I do ice baths to cool. Takes 45-60min (depending if I'm whirlpooling or not). I don't agitate the wort much, but all this talk about oxygenation...getting your beer to cool in 10min or it'll suck...is a bunch of BS. Your wort needs oxygenation to properly ferment. I take two sanitized buckets (AFTER cooling) and dump from one to the other a couple of times before pitching yeast, including DIPAs. I have no oxygenation issues. LHBS confirm that.

I've been there, I wanted to quite also, but kept coming back to these threads, got more advice and went back to work. TRUST ME, you can make AWESOME beer, better then most retails, at little extra cost. Just keep plugging away sir!

 

[chipwitch]

I haven't read through all the suggestions so I'll just give short ones.

1) This was the biggest difference in the "WTF flavor is that?" like you had. I no longer detect that warm fermentation temp flavor. Edit: This is my 2nd shot at home brewing. I quit the first time because of exactly what you said. Live in central Texas, didn't have temp control on carboys. Beer just never came out like I wished. I'ts like night and day temp controlling.

So your WTF flavor was at the finish? Why is this not happening for AG brews? There must be another component besides temp, if temp is the casue? No?

3) I would suggest a simple smash pale ale type recipe. Something not too exotic.

That was the plan for today AG though, not LME

5) Wanted to add, I do ice baths to cool. Takes 45-60min (depending if I'm whirlpooling or not). I don't agitate the wort much, but all this talk about oxygenation...getting your beer to cool in 10min or it'll suck...is a bunch of BS. I wouldn't stir the cooling wort like a Jacuzzi or anything, but I do not have oxygenation issues. LHBS confirm that.

I'm inclined to agree. From what I've read, the oxygenation thing is often overstated.

I've been there, I wanted to quite also, but kept coming back to these threads, got more advice and went back to work. TRUST ME, you can make AWESOME beer, better then most retails, at little extra cost. Just keep plugging away sir!

Ahem... ma'am...

 

[GnenieGone]

Temp fermentation Picture..

 

[GnenieGone]

So your WTF flavor was at the finish? Why is this not happening for AG brews? There must be another component besides temp, if temp is the casue? No? )

You may be correct. I don't do LMEs, DME yes. Mainly because my stove is electric. I once used LME and the temp probe started recording 230+F because the LME was not completely dissolved stopping the boiling action. NO MORE LME for me. Sometimes I get a strong bitter like flavor in the back end, usually on DIPAs. The WTF flavor was all over the place in my first HB attempt 10 years ago...hard to remember.

With that said, things I mentioned are known good procedures. Use these, then see whats happens. If your procedure is solid, still has the WTF flavor then it's something else. Trust me, chemistry works the same everywhere. It'll get it figured out, then your friends will be amazed!

Edit: Did some editing on the original post after your 'quotes'...for clarification. And apologies for the gender assumption..

 

[GnenieGone]

You can rule out the water by brewing a batch with RO water and see if the off flavor is still there.

I second that! I ALWAYS use RO then reminerize. But our water is super hard and ulta-high ph, like 9.5. Straight RO would be a great test.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, just going to add a couple MORE things.

1) If water is good enough to drink it's good enough to brew. However if your ultra sensitive to taste (some ppl are some not), then you might want to go AG/RO-reminerizing. I use gypsum, calcium chloride, Epsom salt, baking soda, and Lactic acid. Google....Ezwater calculator...and download FREE! (excel or open office).

2) Early beer and slightly aged beer definitely taste/sense different. Can't tell you how many times I was going to dump a DIPA after 1 week, but after 3 weeks was the best beer ever made.

3) Make sure your beer is cleaning up. I pretty much stick to 12-14days for all but RIS/Imperial stouts (I'm still struggling to get down), which I give 17-21 days before kegging. I don't do secondaries except flavoring stouts. Dry hops for IPA/DIPAs go directly in primary fermenter, I don't like moving beer too much. (Oh, and a side note, I only dry hop for 6-8hrs. But that's for another thread.) I've had off-flavors being too impatient and pulling off yeast cake too early.

Hope this helps ChipWitch! Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I don't always make the best beer in the world, but I'm VERY picky about flavors and these things mentioned is 18 months of constant effort to make better beer.

 

[GnenieGone]

I don't know if it's true because I've never tried it, but some people say first wort hopping produces mellower flavors too?

We just keep going and going...

I always FWH on IPA/DIPA, but mainly because I use a strainer and can keep 1-2oz hops out of boil. Myrcene, the primary hop oil for aroma/flavor, volatilizes at 147F. They're gone from your FWHs by end of boil. I do 2 whirlpool introductions; 1 at 175F, and 1 at 140F. Then the 6-8hr dry hop pre-kegging. These beers are WOW. Completely changed profile from previous "normal" ways of introducing hops like I used to do, like the recipes you see here.

 

[chipwitch]

Edit: Did some editing on the original post after your 'quotes'...for clarification. And apologies for the gender assumption..

Apology completely unnecessary. It's a reasonable assumption.

 

[chipwitch]

I finally got around to making another brew. AG pale ale. Not quite a SMASH, but simple. I feel good about this one.

Anyway, with regard to the OP, all the advise I've been given and some further evaluation of my notes, as well as tasting a couple of those off tasting brews... I had a thought. I'd like your thoughts.

All of the beers I've tried with LME have been dark, big(ish) ales all made with at least some Golden LME. The suggestion to try a lighter LME is what got me thinking about something I used to do... I'd make a sweet ice tea concentrate and keep it in the fridge. Anytime I wanted a glass of ice tea, I'd simply pour a couple tables spoons in some ice water and stir.

I would boil some water (a pt or so), then throw in 10 tea bags for 5 minutes. Afterward, I would add about a cup of sugar. It made a sticky syrup. Not quite as thick as LME, but pretty thick. Anyway, I remember that if you added a little too much, it would no longer taste like tea. Maybe it was the astringency coming through or something. The point is, the more concentrate added, the more pronounced that off flavor.

I'm wondering if by doing bigger ales if that could be the cause of the off flavor? These award-winning LME brews I've heard people mention, are what kind of recipe are they? Smaller beer? Lighter LME? Partial mashes don't count. I'd prefer seeing examples that were specifically all golden LME. I've not seen any examples personally.