I recently brought a friend to my homebrew club meeting and he pointed out an interesting flavor present in every beer there, including my own. It was a slight acidic or astringent character that was present in the aroma as well as the finish of the beers. It seemed to be most detectable through my nasal passage and it lingered in the top of my mouth. from dark to light, hoppy to almost no hops it didn't matter. I'm very curious as to what this might be. I'm leaning towards oxidation but that's supposed to taste vegetal right? What is common amongst every brewer in my club? How do big breweries transfer beer post fermentation? Does it ever come in contact with open air? I know star san is not supposed to impart a flavor in the finished product but maybe we could be tasting sanitizer? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Typical Homebrew off flavor
- Thread starter schmeek
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
2drunk2
Well-Known Member
Yeast maybe? We don't filter, and always have a bit of sediment in bottles.
Send me a beer and I'll tell you what it is. It's not likely oxidation based on your description, but you are also not correct in thinking that Oxidation is vegetal, that's DMS. Diacetyl is butter/buttery/butterscotchy and Oxidation is usually described as rubber/rubbery/wet paper/cardboard/stale and in older beers, Cola flavors.
The most likely thing that every beer had IF it were an off flavor (I don't believe every hombrewer in your club would have the same off flavor unless everyone's using the same ingredients especially yeast) IS Oxidation, but astringent/acidic...that's not an Oxidation by product.
I don't know how else to help. It's extremely unlikely an entire club has the same off flavor, no matter HOW the beer style, ingredients or processes differ. I don't doubt you tasted something, but there's just no way to get any closer to helping you without actually tasting it.
I have brewed countless homebrews that taste exactly, or better then their commercial beers. So if your friend is trying to convince you that all homebrew has this taste...don't buy it.
The most likely thing that every beer had IF it were an off flavor (I don't believe every hombrewer in your club would have the same off flavor unless everyone's using the same ingredients especially yeast) IS Oxidation, but astringent/acidic...that's not an Oxidation by product.
I don't know how else to help. It's extremely unlikely an entire club has the same off flavor, no matter HOW the beer style, ingredients or processes differ. I don't doubt you tasted something, but there's just no way to get any closer to helping you without actually tasting it.
I have brewed countless homebrews that taste exactly, or better then their commercial beers. So if your friend is trying to convince you that all homebrew has this taste...don't buy it.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
I was going to suggest yeast as well. I think many homebrews are sampled while still a bit 'green' and probably have more yeast than drinkers are used to. I've begun using gelatin to strip out the yeast in my bears. Just last week I shared a recent IPA with a friend and his first comment was, "This doesn't have that homebrew taste."
2drunk2
Well-Known Member
I love the homebrew taste 
I had the same faint elusive acidic taste in my beers for a long time. It disappeared when I upgraded to an oxygen tank, and did proper oxygenation. Around the same time I started being extra careful with water chemistry and mash ph, adding a drop of olive oil to the starters, and following the pitch recommendations on mr malty. I have no idea what it was, but the oxygenation was biggest change.
agrazela
Well-Known Member
Were these bottled or kegged beers? How long since packaging? Were they (generally) cold crashed? If bottled, how long in the fridge?
I'm leaning toward yeast, too. That acid-y twang is what I get from it when I'm too impatient to let it all settle out. Most commercial breweries filter out the yeast (and other clarity-impairing stuff).
Every single brew there, yeah, gotta be yeast. Or dirty-ass glassware
I'm leaning toward yeast, too. That acid-y twang is what I get from it when I'm too impatient to let it all settle out. Most commercial breweries filter out the yeast (and other clarity-impairing stuff).
Every single brew there, yeah, gotta be yeast. Or dirty-ass glassware
This is my first thought as well - it is the most likely thing that is the same for all of you - depending on how you are treating it. High pH will result in harsh/astringent type flavors/perceptions.
Try brewing a batch with distilled or RO water with added salts from a program like bru 'n water. If that batch doesn't have the flavor, it must be something in your water supply...
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
schmeek
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for all the replies! I don't think it's yeast, I drink bottle conditioned commercial beers all the time and I don't get this character. I can't speak to the other brewers process, but I use RO water with CaSO4 and CaCl additions based on brewers friend online calculator. I have recently heard that these salts do not dissolve well in plain water so maybe I am not getting the full potential.
JBaySurfer, I will try to get a beer out to you if you want to PM me ur addresss. I've never shipped a beer before, how much does it cost? Should I just bubble wrap the **** out of it? Thanks for the clarification on the off flavors.
Braufessor Mash PH is another suggestion I like because I only have some crappy papers I got from LHBS and I don't think they work very well, but I really don't want to spend the money on a meter. My last 2 batches were a hefe and a blonde that I added a few ounces of acid malt to try to bring the PH down but that's about as far as I go. I suppose it could be tannins too, I have some extract I use for starters, maybe I'll try and brew an extract batch and see if it's still there.
BTW Demus, I'm in Tallahassee right now but I'm moving to Orlando for school in a few weeks. Probly winter springs/lake Mary area.
Agrazela, my beers are kegged and I fill a couple growlers to bring to the meetings, but I also bottle about a gallon to give away/store or whatever. I will try storing them in the fridge for a few weeks and report back. But I have had some in the fridge for a while and still got the taste. I tried cold crashing a DIPA once, but it turned out horrible and I was pretty upset. I'm not sure what went wrong but it got infected or terribly oxidized or something and I attributed it to throwing a ton of ice packs in my "coolbrew bag." Possibly lowering the temperature too quickly? That is a specific instance however and my beers usually come out great.
Giraffe, I use a disposable oxygen tank from lowes with a .2 micron stone for about 1 minute turned up about halfway to max. I've tried cranking it up to full blast for a min on a couple and it didn't seem to make a difference.
I'm in the process of moving right now and won't be able to brew for a few months but I will continue studying and see if I can't resolve this issue when I get back to it. I'll be finishing my B.S. in Chemistry at UCF, so maybe I'll learn something that can help me fix this flavor. :rockin:
JBaySurfer, I will try to get a beer out to you if you want to PM me ur addresss. I've never shipped a beer before, how much does it cost? Should I just bubble wrap the **** out of it? Thanks for the clarification on the off flavors.
Braufessor Mash PH is another suggestion I like because I only have some crappy papers I got from LHBS and I don't think they work very well, but I really don't want to spend the money on a meter. My last 2 batches were a hefe and a blonde that I added a few ounces of acid malt to try to bring the PH down but that's about as far as I go. I suppose it could be tannins too, I have some extract I use for starters, maybe I'll try and brew an extract batch and see if it's still there.
BTW Demus, I'm in Tallahassee right now but I'm moving to Orlando for school in a few weeks. Probly winter springs/lake Mary area.
Agrazela, my beers are kegged and I fill a couple growlers to bring to the meetings, but I also bottle about a gallon to give away/store or whatever. I will try storing them in the fridge for a few weeks and report back. But I have had some in the fridge for a while and still got the taste. I tried cold crashing a DIPA once, but it turned out horrible and I was pretty upset. I'm not sure what went wrong but it got infected or terribly oxidized or something and I attributed it to throwing a ton of ice packs in my "coolbrew bag." Possibly lowering the temperature too quickly? That is a specific instance however and my beers usually come out great.
Giraffe, I use a disposable oxygen tank from lowes with a .2 micron stone for about 1 minute turned up about halfway to max. I've tried cranking it up to full blast for a min on a couple and it didn't seem to make a difference.
I'm in the process of moving right now and won't be able to brew for a few months but I will continue studying and see if I can't resolve this issue when I get back to it. I'll be finishing my B.S. in Chemistry at UCF, so maybe I'll learn something that can help me fix this flavor. :rockin:
This phenomenon you speak of is called flavor...something alot of commercial beers lack.
Sent from my iPod touch using Home Brew
sudndeth
Well-Known Member
I could be way off, but could it be carbonation. I've had a few homebrews that were over carbed and had this same type of bite. Both kegged and bottled. Thinks it's called carbonic bite, or carbonic acid.
JLeuch
Active Member
How long has it been aging/conditioning in keg/bottles
Sounds like your water is generally in order. If you are using RO water and treating with Gypsum, CaCl and acid malt...... that is right about the ideal course of action.
How much gypsum/CaCl per gallon of water would you say you are adding in batches? What would some examples of amts. be?
Oversparging/high temps. could lead to tannin extraction. If your final runnings that you are collecting are getting down to 1.010 and under and/or if your temperatures are creeping up over 170 during sparge, you can get those problems.
schmeek
Well-Known Member
Ok so my last brew was a take on ommegangs "Cooperstown ale"
Here is the rundown:
4 GAL BATCH
4# Belgian pils
4# Maris otter
1# white wheat
8oz caravienne 20L
4oz Flaked oats
4oz acid malt
OG 1055 FG 1012
And I added .25g CaSO4 and .5g CaCl per gallon.
HOWEVER, it was recently brought to my attention that you should not worry about adding salts to Sparge water. Apparently they don't completely dissolve? They looked like they dissolved pretty well to me. I took some hot water out of my strike water into a glass and stirred with a spoon. Same went for the Sparge water. Next time I'm going to add the Sparge water salt to the kettle. For happier beers, I reverse the sulfate and chloride ratio and go a bit heavier on the amounts. I don't think I've ever added more than 8g of sulfate, and I almost always use 8 gal of total water for my 4 gal batches. (I only have a 6.5 gal kettle)
I hardly ever have enough space in my 5 gal mash tun to add enough water to do a mash out, so I usually just start fly sparging with 170 water and check the gravity with my refractometer when it starts getting around 4.5-5 gal in the kettle. I'm usually at 1.020 by the time I have my desired kettle volume. I tend to undershoot on efficiency so I don't get under 1.010.
Here is the rundown:
4 GAL BATCH
4# Belgian pils
4# Maris otter
1# white wheat
8oz caravienne 20L
4oz Flaked oats
4oz acid malt
OG 1055 FG 1012
And I added .25g CaSO4 and .5g CaCl per gallon.
HOWEVER, it was recently brought to my attention that you should not worry about adding salts to Sparge water. Apparently they don't completely dissolve? They looked like they dissolved pretty well to me. I took some hot water out of my strike water into a glass and stirred with a spoon. Same went for the Sparge water. Next time I'm going to add the Sparge water salt to the kettle. For happier beers, I reverse the sulfate and chloride ratio and go a bit heavier on the amounts. I don't think I've ever added more than 8g of sulfate, and I almost always use 8 gal of total water for my 4 gal batches. (I only have a 6.5 gal kettle)
I hardly ever have enough space in my 5 gal mash tun to add enough water to do a mash out, so I usually just start fly sparging with 170 water and check the gravity with my refractometer when it starts getting around 4.5-5 gal in the kettle. I'm usually at 1.020 by the time I have my desired kettle volume. I tend to undershoot on efficiency so I don't get under 1.010.
Who told you "don't worry about adding salts to your sparge water"? The sparge could well be the source of the flavors you are experiencing and this advice is misleading. It really just depends on what you want the final profile to be versus the profile for the mash since the boil will tend to concentrate the mineral content. Whether or not you treat sparge water with salts is besides the point. The salts influence the mash pH, but really don't have time to have the effect on your sparge water. High pH sparging very well could be your issue. Try testing the pH of your sparge water, I bet you get 7.something. This should be lowered to 5.5 or so with lactic acid or similar BEFORE the mash out and lauter. It definitely won't hurt anything and it may just be the source of your off flavors.
You going to UCF? Welcome to O-Town!
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
You going to UCF? Welcome to O-Town!
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
schmeek
Well-Known Member
John Palmer is where I heard not to worry about adding salts to the sparge water. Brew strong water episodes. I would like to get my hands on some phosphoric acid for the sparge as Gordon strong suggests. Thanks for the warm welcome to O-town... Do you know of any good apartments/condos in the lake Mary/winter springs/Oviedo area?
dyqik
Well-Known Member
If you look at the bru'n'water spreadsheet, you'll see that some salts shouldn't be added to the sparge, but some can. It'll also tell you how much lactic acid you need to get the sparge pH below 6, where it needs to be to avoid extracting tannins.
MindenMan
Well-Known Member
How do you use gelatin to remove the yeast from your bears ? I didn't know bears were prone to yeast problems. Was the exotic animal license expensive?
Do the bears like yeast?
Okay, I'll stop...
2drunk2
Well-Known Member
Gelatin + bears = gummy bears
Starsan is widely used in commercial breweries.
