Two Batches In - Need Some Help

[djschererjr]

I am two batches in. The first was a brown ale and the second an attempt at a pumpkin ale. Both have been "ok". I am not expecting commercial quality, but I'd like to see where I might be making some mistakes and where I might improve.

Both had a "sharp" taste early and a somewhat "flat" finish though the brown ale was definitely better. I equate the sharpness to somewhat of a soapy flavor though my wife and Dad say otherwise. Guessing it's the hops but I dunno. Neither my wife nor my Dad are real craft beer drinkers...

Some other commonalities:
- I used the same equipment from my starter kit
- I believe I cleaned and rinsed well. Used OxiClean solution or similar powder that I purchased with my initial kit.
- I believe I sanitized well (Star-San)
- LME with specialty grains with both kits
- Same "brand" water - grocery store spring water in gallon jugs
- 60 minute full (5+ gal) boils
- Boil overs in both batches especially at first hop addition
- Used a wort chiller, but took 15 minutes or so to chill (or so I can recall).
- Dry yeast with both (not sure the exact type)
- Primary fermentation in a plastic bucket stored in a 5 cu ft chest freezer with a Johnson Controls external. Strapped the RTD to the side of the bucket with a bungee cord and a gel pack.
- Did not measure fermentation like I should have through the fermentation process. Went on a 3 week time period only, but the starting and finishing SGs were similar to those outlined in the instructions
- Cleaned the bottles manually, but ran thru the dishwasher for good measure. Did not use soap for the pumpkin batch of bottles.
- Good/decent carbonation with both batches
- Allowed at least three weeks for bottle conditioning in the same freezer chest with external controller.

Some differences
- Full LME addition at the start (post grain steep) with the brown and partial (~1/2 at start and ~1/2 with 15 mins left) with the pumpkin
- Poured the wort back and forth a couple of times with the brown before leaving in the primary. In retrospect, I probably did not oxidize like I needed to there which could have affected my yeast activity. Poured the wort into a sanitized bottling bucket for the pumpkin and let it drain into the primary (counter top to floor - out the bottling spout and down into the primary trying to get good agitation).
- Racked to a secondary with the brown to try and help with clarity. Used Whirlfloc with pumpkin batch and left in primary. As stated earlier, allowed three weeks each.
- Good activity in the airlock with the pumpkin, but not much with the brown. Was unsure about the brown and actually posted in here about maybe re-pitching yeast, but ended up not due to a decent SG reading after three weeks.

Kits:

Brown:
http://www.homebrewing.org/Jons-Wicked-Brown-Ale-Recipe-Kit_p_576.html#

Pumpkin:
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/pumpkin-ale.html

I believe the "sharp" taste, whatever it is, to be an off-flavor and undesirable. I am not sure if I am not fermenting long enough or not allowing for conditioning long enough. Also, not sure about the water and the boil overs affecting things.

Any help or guidance would be much appreciated before I start my next batch.

 

[kh54s10]

At what temperature did you ferment? Too warm could give you fusel alcohols which could be described as "sharp"

Ferment until you reach FG for a couple of days. Some go as short as 7-10 days, I prefer 3 weeks but have done 14 days to get a new beer done sooner.

Bottle conditioning usually takes at least 2 weeks, 3 is better, sometimes longer AT ABOUT 70 DEGREES. These brews are more complex, so I would think aging for a month or more will allow the flavors to blend properly.

 

[bemerritt]

I agree with letting the beer age.

I know you used dry yeast, but did you rehydrate it before use?

Moving forward, I would say a yeast starter would help your beer out and would be a logical next step for you.

Also, if you used soap for the brown ale bottles when in the dishwasher, that probably isn't doing you any favors.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You don't need to transfer the wort back and forth to aerate before active fermentation begins. It sounds like a messy way to do business. After you've siphoned the wort to primary and cooled to pitching temp, put the lid on and rock it vigorously for at least 5 minutes. I'm slow to upgrade, and that's how I still do it. I shake it hard enough that my arms get tired and I have to take a break, and this will really work it into a froth (to the point that the wort will have a solid head). It sounds to me like aeration and yeast quality/health is your problem. I don't use dry yeast, but rehydrating or buying fresh yeast separate from the kit should solve any problems there. Between the two, you should see your lag times drop and your beer's flavor improve.

I'm also curious to know why you're using bottled water. That isn't automatically better. If your water tastes good and doesn't have chloramine, you're in fairly good shape already. Then again, your water might be a disaster. Either way, I'm curious.

 

[djschererjr]

I'll try to answer and further clarify...might take me a couple of responses or edits to get them all in.

On temp for both fermentation and bottle conditioning: I set the controller to 70 degF allowing for a +/- deg swing. Early on in the Brown Ale, the temp was swinging more until I strapped the RTD on to the fermenting bucket.

I did rehydrate the yeast for both batches. Maybe I'll try fresh yeast on future batches.

I might not be allowing enough time and maybe the flavor is just early/green. I am having a couple bottles of the pumpkin tonight and it's a little smoother.

As far as the water goes, I don't have an explanation except that I just didn't trust tap water for my first two attempts. I just did not want to take any chances. I think our tap water tastes fine and would probably work without having to actually purchase it in bottles.

Any thoughts on the LME additions / full boil / etc.? I think the Brown worked out great, but it was a little darker than I expected. It had a nice caramel, toasty flavor which was probably supposed to be there but maybe "enhanced" due to boiling the entire LME for 60 mins. I was worried I'd make the pumpkin too dark which is why I split it up.

Lastly, I appreciate all the replies and the help. Just trying to get better one batch at a time.

 

[nikkuchan]

Though this may not have enough of an impact to give you off-flavors, how much headspace are you leaving in your bottles? When I first started, I didn't use a bottle wand and just kind of eyed my bottles, and fearing bottle bombs, left quite a bit of headspace. I slowly started leave less and less, and I had begun to notice that the beer from the bottles with lots of headspace smelled a little strange and had a bit of a funky aftertaste, but the beer from the same batch that came from the bottles with less headspace smelled great and tasted a lot better. Now that I use a bottle wand, I haven't run into any off-flavors. Though I'm not sure whether it was the headspace, or my technique has just gotten better, it's the factor that I've noticed has changed the most.

Just a thought.

 

[djschererjr]

I would guess that I leave 1" or so. Interesting thought.

Though this may not have enough of an impact to give you off-flavors, how much headspace are you leaving in your bottles? When I first started, I didn't use a bottle wand and just kind of eyed my bottles, and fearing bottle bombs, left quite a bit of headspace. I slowly started leave less and less, and I had begun to notice that the beer from the bottles with lots of headspace smelled a little strange and had a bit of a funky aftertaste, but the beer from the same batch that came from the bottles with less headspace smelled great and tasted a lot better. Now that I use a bottle wand, I haven't run into any off-flavors. Though I'm not sure whether it was the headspace, or my technique has just gotten better, it's the factor that I've noticed has changed the most.

Just a thought.

 

[RM-MN]

I'll try to answer and further clarify...might take me a couple of responses or edits to get them all in.

On temp for both fermentation and bottle conditioning: I set the controller to 70 degF allowing for a +/- deg swing. Early on in the Brown Ale, the temp was swinging more until I strapped the RTD on to the fermenting bucket.

I did rehydrate the yeast for both batches. Maybe I'll try fresh yeast on future batches.

I might not be allowing enough time and maybe the flavor is just early/green. I am having a couple bottles of the pumpkin tonight and it's a little smoother.

As far as the water goes, I don't have an explanation except that I just didn't trust tap water for my first two attempts. I just did not want to take any chances. I think our tap water tastes fine and would probably work without having to actually purchase it in bottles.

Any thoughts on the LME additions / full boil / etc.? I think the Brown worked out great, but it was a little darker than I expected. It had a nice caramel, toasty flavor which was probably supposed to be there but maybe "enhanced" due to boiling the entire LME for 60 mins. I was worried I'd make the pumpkin too dark which is why I split it up.

Lastly, I appreciate all the replies and the help. Just trying to get better one batch at a time.

The temperature for fermenting depends on the variety of yeast used but the more popular dry yeasts do much better if you start them nearer to 60 than 70. 70 degrees would be warm enough for them to give you some weird flavors and possibly some fusel alcohol. The beer only needs to be kept at the lower temperature for the first 3 to 5 days and then can be allowed to warm to room temperature. This warmer temperature at the later part of the ferment helps the yeast to clean up the byproducts and yields cleaner tasting beer. You don't need to keep the bottles in your controlled freezer either. By the time your beer is ready to bottle the flavors are already locked in so leave your bottles out at room temperature.

 

[JR_Brewer]

First off, don't get discouraged, you'll improve with experience! Let me see what I can add to the conversation:

Both had a "sharp" taste early and a somewhat "flat" finish though the brown ale was definitely better.

...

- LME with specialty grains with both kits

My guess is the dreaded homebrew "twang." It's a hotly debated topic, but I think some people are more sensitive to it than others. I, like you, don't like it. I found Liquid extract to be correlated to each of my batches that had it. Since I discovered this, I've moved away from LME to DME. While I do AG, PM, and extract (on occasion), I now use dry malt extract when I need extract. My 2 cents, but I'm going to guess there are other opinions out there.

Boil overs in both batches especially at first hop addition

Keep a close eye on the kettle once the boil begins. Keep a spray bottle of water (or Star-San if that's what's handy) close by. When a boil-over starts, turn down the heat and spray with the bottle. With experience, you'll start to predict the boilovers, and usually there's a point in the boil where you know you're safe.

- I used the same equipment from my starter kit
- I believe I cleaned and rinsed well. Used OxiClean solution or similar powder that I purchased with my initial kit.
- I believe I sanitized well (Star-San)
- Same "brand" water - grocery store spring water in gallon jugs
- 60 minute full (5+ gal) boils
- Used a wort chiller, but took 15 minutes or so to chill (or so I can recall).
- Dry yeast with both (not sure the exact type)
- Primary fermentation in a plastic bucket stored in a 5 cu ft chest freezer with a Johnson Controls external. Strapped the RTD to the side of the bucket with a bungee cord and a gel pack.
- Did not measure fermentation like I should have through the fermentation process. Went on a 3 week time period only, but the starting and finishing SGs were similar to those outlined in the instructions
- Cleaned the bottles manually, but ran thru the dishwasher for good measure. Did not use soap for the pumpkin batch of bottles.
- Good/decent carbonation with both batches
- Allowed at least three weeks for bottle conditioning in the same freezer chest with external controller.

Sounds good. Sanitation, temp control, and process all sound good. I'm guessing you are fermenting and bottle conditioning long enough, but the only way to tell is to take a final gravity reading.

Poured the wort back and forth a couple of times with the brown before leaving in the primary. In retrospect, I probably did not oxidize like I needed to there which could have affected my yeast activity. Poured the wort into a sanitized bottling bucket for the pumpkin and let it drain into the primary (counter top to floor - out the bottling spout and down into the primary trying to get good agitation).

It's aeriate, not oxidize. Either way, you're probably doing ok. To do it better, I like to fill my fermenter up 1/3 - 1/2 of the way with wort, and stop racking. Shake it like it owes you money, until it's a foamy mess. Then rack the rest of the wort into the fermenter. I just find shaking ~2 gallons is a lot easier than shaking 5 gallons.

- Racked to a secondary with the brown to try and help with clarity. Used Whirlfloc with pumpkin batch and left in primary. As stated earlier, allowed three weeks each.

Surpisingly, secondary fermentation does little to clarify beer. It does mean less trub to deal with later on. Whirlfloc or Irish moss, as well a good, vigourous boil, will help with clarity.

Ok, hope this helps. Cheers

 

[RM-MN]

Aeration helps the yeast grow more yeast as the process of building cell walls requires the oxygen.(simplified version) That's really important with the liquid yeasts because they contain fewer cells per vial or smack pack than the dry yeast but the dry yeast has another "advantage" in that it already contains the needed nutrients for cell wall production so you don't really need to aerate with dry yeast.

 

[rodwha]

For good aeration I use a whisk. Simple, quick, and easy.

I get my LME from MoreBeer, and have been for about 3 years. Never had an issue with stale extract.

At what temp are you steeping your grains?

 

[rodwha]

My water tastes great, but i still filter it through our Pur filter.

 

[djschererjr]

Yes, I did mean aerate and not oxidize. My mistake.

On the steeping temp, I believe it was 160 degF.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I've got to wonder if your bottles are truly clean. I screwed that up on my first batch, and the beer tasted flat, one dimensional, and not very good.

Another thought - are you sure your wort chiller is taking it down to pitching temps in 15 mins? From my own experience: I used to think my wort was chilling that quick, because that's what the thermometer in the wort told me. But after a few batches, I found that if I raised the thermometer up toward the top of the wort, the wort was 40+ degrees warmer because the wort chiller was only able to chill the bottom of the kettle. To solve it I made a second chiller and placed it inside the other wort chiller, and branched the cold water input line so one chiller had cold water supply to the bottom, and the other to the top. This helped me bring the batch down to pitching temps quicker and more evenly.

/\ /\ /\ That COULD be another part of the equation.

But all in all, it could be a few different factors. Hard to say.

 

[JJ900]

I have no more experience than you OP, so can't add much to the process aspects except maybe don't transfer to secondary to simplify your process until you like your results. But I would say that my 2nd batch was a clone kit (NB Pliney) and it came out so much better than my first batch (also a kit just not a clone) - so if you tried a clone kit where you have some guess as how good its supposed to taste even just from others online reviews of the kit you'd be testing the upper limit of what your process is allowing. I hope that makes sense.