Turning an (infected) abbey ale into a sour beer

[Likefully]

I tried to make a variant of the Westvleteren clone discussed here

When I took the first gravity reading it tasted good, but despite being very careful about sanitation it now (a week later) tastes like it has been infected with Lactobacillus.

It was very hard work making that beer and quite expensive too so am willing to work to save it. I lost a lot of volume in the boil so I have about 16L.

Is it worth trying to save it. I was thinking of adding about 7L of clean wort to the existing batch and it let it ferment the clean wort out to soften the sourness - or will the bacteria simply spread to the clean wort too?

 

[broadbill]

I tried to make a variant of the Westvleteren clone discussed here

When I took the first gravity reading it tasted good, but despite being very careful about sanitation it now (a week later) tastes like it has been infected with Lactobacillus.

It was very hard work making that beer and quite expensive too so am willing to work to save it. I lost a lot of volume in the boil so I have about 16L.

Is it worth trying to save it. I was thinking of adding about 7L of clean wort to the existing batch and it let it ferment the clean wort out to soften the sourness - or will the bacteria simply spread to the clean wort too?

adding new wort will just feed the lacto more than give the yeast a boost. Lacto vs. yeast, lacto will win every time. Best bet if you don't want to dump is to let it sit for a year in hopes that the sourness will fade so that it is palatable. Another option would be to blend it with another fermented beer.

Good luck...not many viable options here.

 

[brwagur]

When you say you think it is infected with lactobacillus what do you mean? Do you mean that it tastes sour? What I would do if I were you would be to pitch either a commercial sour blend like roselare or pitch the dregs of your favorite sour beers and let it ride for about a year.

 

[botigol]

I wouldn't be so quick to determine that it is a lacto infection. From tastes good to infected in a week on a young beer that needs to be aged, just doesn't add up for me. Do you have a pellicle, floaties or a sour flavor? I just found your posts; your batch is only two weeks old and you significantly under-pitched. Are you sure that it is even done?

 

[Likefully]

Do you have a pellicle, floaties or a sour flavor? I just found your posts; your batch is only two weeks old and you significantly under-pitched. Are you sure that it is even done?

Fair comment (brwagur too) and good questions.

There isn't a pellicle. There are some (very few) small floaties - but i have had more floaties on beers that have come out fine.

I have tasted small drops of it when i took a sample for the refractometer and those were sour.

It has stopped fermenting - the gravity is constant. It may not have reached the targeted FG, but I measure it at around 11% ABV so not hoping for anything more to happen there.

I am going to crash it and then see how it tastes after that. I get broadbill's comment - I will probably bottle it all in large bottles (750 ml) and let it sit for a year before braving it.

 

[botigol]

11% is over the recipe's projected outcome, so you got quite a bit of attenuation out of your yeast. Which makes it strange, since you wrote that it did not reach the predicted FG. Did you correct your FG reading for the presence of alcohol? I don't have experience with this, but there is supposed to be a chart or calculator online.

I think that bottling would be a bad idea. The original recipe calls for 60+ days before bottling. Secondarily, if you do have a lacto infection, you will end up with bottle bombs. At minimum, I would rack to a secondary vessel. If you are convinced that it has an infection, do as brwagur suggested and get some commercial souring bugs in there and wait. With wild bugs it is more likely that you will end up with one that doesn't taste good than one of the few that does. If you aren't sure, the beer needs the extra time to come together and for the yeast to do whatever it is that they do after the active fermentation, so you should still wait a bit. Just my $0.02.

 

[madscientist451]

Tasted a few drops? I wouldn't do anything based on that. Pull a decent sample, put it in a glass, smell it, swirl it around, smell it some more. Take a small sip to see if its drinkable, put it down and if its not making you puke repeat the process a few times. Let us know what you've got.
If its not good just relax and wait a month and come back to it.

 

[Likefully]

11% is over the recipe's projected outcome, so you got quite a bit of attenuation out of your yeast. Which makes it strange, since you wrote that it did not reach the predicted FG. Did you correct your FG reading for the presence of alcohol? I don't have experience with this, but there is supposed to be a chart or calculator online.

I use an online calculator that estimates your SG based on the difference between the starting brix and current brix. Then you add the OG to the mix and it uses all these variables to give you the ABV. There are variables that I haven't adjusted for - like temperature and the style of beer (i read somewhere that the style affects the brix...). So my margin of error could be as much as 2%, but I have found even without considering these things my estimated ABV is generally accurate (i.e. some of my beers have come out at 7% I thought I made a mistake with the measurements....until I start slurring after the third beer!)

There is a good chance I got more fermentables from the mash than I should have so that may explain the higher ABV.

Hopefully I am overreacting (about the lacto) and I need to pull a larger sample to be sure. I will hold out before bottling for a while.

 

[thrasius]

You are very unlikely to have a lactobacillus infection with 36 IBUs. Lactobacillus usually isn't hop tolerant to that degree. Also, a noticeable pedio infection is very unlikely in a young beer. When did you brew it?

I think it's more likely that you have a very green beer on your hands. Let it ride and see what happens.

 

[Calder]

I think I can almost guarantee you do not have a lacto infection. ... lots of reasons, but not going to list them here.

You say you tasted a few drops. How about taking a decent sample (hydrometer), and then drinking the beer and than making a decision.

What was your OG and what was your FG. You say you used a refractometer and a calculator, so you should have the numbers. You say you 'could' have gotten more fermentables from the mash ...... your OG measurement would have told you if that was the case ...... you should know this, not 'maybe????'

In response to 'broadbills' comment, if you have a lacto infection (which I seriously doubt), the lacto will effectively be stalled by alcohol anywhere in the region of 11%, and will not further infect your beer.

How old is the beer? Assuming you got a decent start to fermentation, your beer would be protected from most infections. If anything has infected the beer, it most probably would be actobacter (I'm assuming it is only a short time). If acetobacter has infected the beer it should be obvious, it will have subtle (or maybe in your face) hints of vinegar.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Rack it, and leave it be. Do not go messing with it right now, i know its hard but that beer, even if not infected is a ways off from being done. If it is, it will take time to show. A few drops is not an indicator, especially with an expensive beer.

Now your extra abv....you said you boiled off to 16l....im taking a guess it was supposed to be 20l, this is your higher alcohol content, boiling down creates a higher OG. An extra gallon of boil off can seriously concentrate wort.

 

[broadbill]

I think I can almost guarantee you do not have a lacto infection. ... lots of reasons, but not going to list them here.

You say you tasted a few drops. How about taking a decent sample (hydrometer), and then drinking the beer and than making a decision.

What was your OG and what was your FG. You say you used a refractometer and a calculator, so you should have the numbers. You say you 'could' have gotten more fermentables from the mash ...... your OG measurement would have told you if that was the case ...... you should know this, not 'maybe????'

In response to 'broadbills' comment, if you have a lacto infection (which I seriously doubt), the lacto will effectively be stalled by alcohol anywhere in the region of 11%, and will not further infect your beer.

How old is the beer? Assuming you got a decent start to fermentation, your beer would be protected from most infections. If anything has infected the beer, it most probably would be actobacter (I'm assuming it is only a short time). If acetobacter has infected the beer it should be obvious, it will have subtle (or maybe in your face) hints of vinegar.

First off, I didn't say it was lacto. Second, the question was about what would happen if OP fed the beer fresh wort, which is what I was responding to. Lacto, pedio, acetobacter....feeding fresh wort isn't going to help.

 

[TNGabe]

crap in = crap out. dump it and start over.

 

[Coff]

crap in = crap out. dump it and start over.

/thread

Also, there has been some bad advice given here. Lacto has its limitations, alcohol tolerance IBUs etc. You may or may not even have an infected beer, but if it is infected it's probably not just Lacto. Nobody on the Internet can blindly tell you what it is.

Either age it out and see how it progresses or dump it and start over. I would age it a bit as it seems quite young.

 

[ThreeDogsNE]

You have an acid flavor that you didn't expect, and didn't make malt vinegar, right? If you can spare the fermenter for a year, I think I would pitch a healthy dose of a known Brett culture, or at least the bottle dregs from a few of your favorite sour beers, and check back in a year or so. During that time, Tonsmeire's American Sour Beers book would make good reading about what (I hope) is happening. 36 IBUs and 11% ABV shouldn't leave much room for bacterial action, but Brett may weather the storm and salvage your batch. If you can't spare the fermenter, I'd still scavenge some gallon jugs, spend $4 or so on airlocks, and see what you get in a year.

 

[amber-ale]

What is the difference between an intentionally soured beer flavour and the flavour of an infected batch?
What is the flavour of each type of bacteria?

 

[Funky Frank]

What is the difference between an intentionally soured beer flavour and the flavour of an infected batch?

Maybe nothing. You pick a specific culture for an intentional sour that has been known to make the flavors that you want but the infected batch has whatever “wild” culture happened to jump in. The “wild” culture could make the same lemony, fruity, barnyardy flavors as an intentional pitch or it could make a vinegar and vomit cocktail.

Go to white labs and imperial, and omega and read some of their descriptors to get a feel for some of the typical or potential flavors that some of the bugs can offer. Pedio and Lacto are often lemony and Brett can be a lot of different things like dark fruit or leather or a horse blanket.

 

[mashpaddled]

There's no way to guess at what's in the beer without looking at a sample under a microscope. Plenty of lactic acid bacteria are hop tolerant, some wild yeast produce a lot of acid and there are a lot of bacteria that make other types of acids. Just no way to know.

If what you see floating is blue, grey, or green you should throw it out because that's very likely mold. That's unlikely if you reached 11% ABV in fermentation though.

If you're committed to trying to make a drinkable sour beer out of this then you should buy a pitch of a souring blend, add it to the beer and forget about it for a year. If you aren't a big sour beer drinker then dump it. No reason to throw more money at something you won't want to drink. Either way, any cold-side equipment that touches this beer will need a deep clean and sanitation.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

What is the difference between an intentionally soured beer flavour and the flavour of an infected batch?
What is the flavour of each type of bacteria?

Well it can be no difference at all between an intentional one or an accidental one sensory speaking. But basically in an intentional one most times you know what's in there (except air inoculated beers), how it will behave and taste, you can even manipulate it through temp control, in the other hand with an infection you have no idea what's in there or how is going to be the final outcome, it may taste great 4 months in and then be **** for ever because some organism started getting hold of it as the good tasting ones go to sleep.